Shaming is a Necessary Thing - Comments

@ dru vs. slut shaming
You really seem to missing my point. I don't give a shit about what you do. I'm hardly Mr Innocent, I've been with plenty of people. What irks me about this whole thing is that a lot of the anti slut shaming people are trying really hard to make everyone agree with their life choices. I never said I disagree with how you live your life. Hell, in a lot of ways I do agree with your choices. My argument is that people should be allowed to disagree without you getting all mad and crying about oppression.

@ addictedsevenfold.
Finally someone makes some sense in this place. I agree with a lot of what you said. But I think the issue with all this slut shaming band wagon nonsense is that the self proclaimed "sluts" are forcing their lifestyles onto others and trying to make everyone agree with them about their choices, and reacting angrily when people don't like it. Which in essence is the very thing they're trying to fight against. It's become a clusterfuck of nonsense and hypocrisy. The same can be said for many of these social rights movements in the last few years.

@ The Zac
Why does some twenty year old dude get to decide if my sex life meets his standards of 'scrupulous' behavior? Why do my clothes and my sex life deserve to be shamed by someone like you? Why do YOU get to decide my sex life? Do I get to decide you're not having enough sex and shame you for it?

My sexual behavior should be decided by me, not you. It's my body. I'm not fucking you, what do you have to do with it? Get out of the beds of others and maybe you'll be happier.

A-fucking-men. I don't understand why people get so upset because other's pass judgement on them. It's an automatic reaction to everything. Who gives to fucks? Just because someone calls you a slut doesn't mean you are and you simply need to get over that and go on about your day.

@ dru vs. slut shaming
No I think shaming is necessary in general. Not just sluts. For unscrupulous behaviour. I admit the title is bad, I was going to write about how shaming isn't inherently a bad thing but got kinda stuck on this whole slut shaming thing. I should have revised the title. I think that judgement does not imply ownership. As a human being with the right to think and feel what you want about stimulus means you are going to come to conclusions on all kinda of things and people. Doesn't mean you think you own them.

@ The Zac
You're totally right; we live in a world where pretty much everything is influenced by societal norms. It's the way it is, and that's not going to change. And it's certainly not just sexual behavior that the societally accepted norm dictates, it's everything from not screaming at the top of your lungs for no reason in public right up to the whole murder-is-bad extreme.

I think the thing that gets people to make a 'fuss' about slut-shaming is that it's one of those societally-influenced things that has a relatively extreme reaction if you deviate from it, and that reaction can be devastating to a person who doesn't necessarily deserve it. Just like shaming a boy for wearing a pink tiara, or a man for being attracted to men... shaming an individual for their choice in attire or their frequency or type of sexual encounters is not something that society should get to dictate... it's not the type of thing that one person should be able to look at and decide they have a right to say hateful things about without any consequences.

I can totally respect that you have different preferences in who you look for in a partner; that's cool, and I don't think anyone would begrudge you for preferring to be with girls that are more conservative sexually. It's when that individual preference switches into passing judgement and name calling that people take issue. There's a difference between "that's someone who I wouldn't personally prefer to date" and "that's someone who is a whore, and that's someone that shouldn't be the way she is"... I don't know if I'm making sense right now.

I'm gonna try to come off as not rude as possible, but your post here is the perfect example of mansplaining.

"I don't see it; it doesn't affect me, so it's not a thing". You, as a man, are not affected by this because society has not placed a stigma on your sexuality and body. This is why you don't see it and why you think it's not a huge issue.

Women, since we are born, are told that we should be ashamed of our bodies. "Don't touch yourself there, it's dirty" is one of the most common phrases among the Mexican culture and this is ALWAYS directed to girls. Then we get the whole load of crap that the media throws about women: which body is "beautiful" and which one is not, what type of behavior is desirable and which one is not (passive vs. assertive, with assertive women often being classified as "bitches").

These experiences vary, of course, but documentation through research helps bring forth this issues. Two generations above me in Mexico (that means around 40-70 year old women) refuse to even go to the doctor for pap smears or gynecological exams because they were told that no one should look there and that it was dirty and a sin if anybody but their husbands looked there. I'm a community health worker, I know my community and I know my statistic as much as I know the attitudes and beliefs in women that surround me. All of this becomes internalized and by the time that we want to explore or own bodies, we end up having these horrible guilt trips (religion + culture, at least in Mexico, are the worst combination when it comes to these attitudes).

Slut-shaming is a huge freaking issue, dude. Slut-shaming and victim-blaming come together in this big package called sexism. Often victims of rape are questioned on what where they wearing or doing to "deserve" getting raped and they are shamed for "daring" to wear shorts or a mini skirt and blamed for "exposing themselves". Women are shamed for wearing what THEY WANT, making choices for themselves, enjoying their sexuality, etc.

You saying that it is not important is part of the problem, especially with comments like this " I don't want to see some fat chick with her ass hanging out of her shorts. It affects me because its gross. As far as promiscuous behaviour goes, don't make a huge deal out of it and no one will care."

I should be able to wear whatever I want without having to go through this type of comments or be called a slut for wearing what makes me comfortable or what makes me feel great about myself. I can talk about my sex life if I want to in my personal blog, or to my friends if they're willing to listen, or even to these stranger women that I assist or the new freshmen students at college who are clueless about sexual education because talking about sexuality normalizes it and doesn't make it a huge taboo; this is called psycho-education and it is an enormous tool when trying to dispel myths about sexuality as well as to promote preventive health care.

What I do or what I wear should never be a motive to criticize me. Criticize me for being an awful person, yes, but for dressing or acting a certain way and making decisions that DO NOT IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM affect you, no.

@ The Zac
"Stupid girls who wanna show off their tits and whinge about oppression are not victims."
"Shaming is a necessary thing."

It sort of implies you have the right to shame girls who are showing off their tits.

And, yeah, I did sort of get off and started thinking about guys hitting on girls who were dressed up, so forgive me for going down that track.

But the point still stands that your words imply it's NECESSARY to shame girls who are showing their breasts in a manner you believe in appropriate.

@ dru vs. slut shaming
When did I say that I do that? You're making these bizarre assumptions about me. I notice a good looking girls body for sure. I don't think that means I own it. What a strange and sexist assumption to make. I never said anything about a woman having to listen to what I say. What the fuck are you on about?

@ The Zac
So, your friend made it aware the conversation about his body was welcome.

Whereas, if you just say something to a random stranger about their body, they have not made you aware such an exchange is welcome. You simple decide "woman, hot body, must speak" and she, being a woman, must listen to what you say.

If you have the right to say it, why doesn't she have the right to tell you you're a rude jerk and you should keep your mouth shut and your opinions to yourself?

@ The Zac
The ownership aspect of it doesn't come from you thinking you actually own her. I don't think that's what dru's trying to say at all!

But passing judgement on what someone's wearing and implying or suggesting openly that they should feel ashamed to be wearing that or shouldn't be wearing that at all... there's an implication there that you think you have the right to dictate clothing choices. There's the implied ownership.

@ dru vs. slut shaming
Nope, but we do talk about his body and what he wants me to help him achieve with it. And the movie does belong to people. Commenting on someone's appearance does not imply ownership. That's just absurd

@ addictedsevenfold.
It's all good mate. I was maybe a little out of line with the way I said that. We have a societal norm almost of what's whore like behaviour and what's not. Same goes for man whores as well. Some people are more liberal than others with their whore criteria though.

@ The Zac
A movie that does not belong to either of you, correct.

A body that DOES belong to her.

Talk about a movie that doesn't belong to either of you all you want. But did you tell your friend you think his penis is weird looking?

@ dru vs. slut shaming
How on earth does that imply ownership? That makes no sense. I'm not going to look at a girl, make up my mind about what I think of her appearance then decide she's mine. That's a ridiculous leap in logic. We voice opinions on things all the time, I was just talking to my mate about a movie and what we thought of it (it was good for the record lol) but that doesn't mean we own it. We witnessed it. We perceived it and came to a conclusion.

So, do you really think sex is the equivalent of murder?

@ The Zac
Yeah, there are more important issues, but it doesn't mean this isn't an important issue. Homosexuality is more important in Russia than American right now, but that doesn't mean that it's still not important to recognize the struggles of homosexuals in this country. If we ignore problems because there are bigger ones, nothing will ever get solved.

Deciding that the need to voice your opinion is more important than the feelings on the person does imply ownership. It implies the person who owns the body (the woman) is less important the their feeling regarding their body do not matter. Instead, the must submit to the person who wishes to comment on their body regardless of whether or not it makes them feel uncomfortable or possibly threatened.

@ The Zac
Okay, yeah, re-reading that is having me see how I misinterpreted that second comment; I apologize! But I'm still having trouble understanding the whole "Not liking the fact that some people don't like whores?" thing. I still don't see why you -- or anyone, of course -- thinks it's acceptable to look at someone's behavior or attire and decide "yeah, she's a whore." And, more importantly, I don't see how that gives someone the right to pass judgement, at all.

And why should "some fat chick with her ass hanging out of her shorts" have to dress the way you'd prefer she dress? What if I find it gross for men to have unshaved legs? Should all men have to shave their legs or cover up so that they don't gross me out? Or should they be allowed to wear whatever the heck they want, because it's their body, and it's not my decision how they dress?

@ G-Dragon;
I really don't care about your boobs or your sexual partners. If people call you a slut don't associate with those people. I've been called silly things before, so I just don't talk to those people.

I don't understand why I shouldn't be allowed to talk about my sex life either. If I want to post a blog about it, why shouldn't you just skip my blog instead of going 'omg, you fucking slut'.