Stop Romanticizing Unhealthy Relationships 2k15 (on Nick Jonas) - Comments

@ Proud Saiyan Warrior
Different people view different things as cheating. Some people view meaningless flirting as cheating; my husband and I don't, because we both have always had friendships that involved a lot of sexual humor/innuendo and blatant flirting.

But like I said, for me personally, I don't care what other people might be trying to do with my husband--to me, part of trusting someone is trusting that regardless of someone else's intentions, his won't change, you know?

I don't think having different boundaries of what's cheating and what isn't makes you messed up, as long as it's not like "If you have any friends of the opposite sex whatsoever and talk to them ever at any point that's cheating" because healthy relationships should never interfere with one another regardless of whether they're romantic or not. Like, healthy romantic relationships shouldn't inhibit friendships and healthy friendships shouldn't inhibit romantic relationships, if that makes sense.

...I am getting overly wordy and I apologize.

@ AmorarEsDeVivir

It's perfectly fine, I only brought up mine because it's the only relationship I concern myself with (I don't make a habit of knowing what's going on in other peoples is all) so I can only base things off my relationships. I don't mind what you're saying, not at all :)

Plus, It's kind of like a scientific study - Haha.

But in all seriousness, I do understand what you're saying - I guess when you've just been damaged as much as we have by others, there's no way of fixing it and we create our own patterns of dealing with things. It's all relative.

And with the 'Doesnt mean he won't cheat' thing - I'm blaming others, not him. Because I've seen girls trying to on with him, and of course he stops them but I still get filled with rage about it, because it's the audacity that people would do that and try and destroy something beautiful because of whatever reason. It makes no sense to me.

It must also be taken into account though at my opinion would be naturally warped as I view certain things as cheating, and others not. I'm a messed up unit and I can own that. xD

@ Proud Saiyan Warrior
I feel like I should say something else before this entire conversation gets to be debating the merits of your particular relationship, because that is not what I mean to do. Once you started using your relationship as an example, I started basing my points off of it to illustrate them in a more general manner based on specific examples, but I don't want to keep doing that because I don't want you to feel like I'm attacking your relationship. It sounds like you and your partner really care about each other and that's great, and I don't want you to think I think you're a horrible significant other or your relationship is fucked, because I don't think that. All I meant to say is that jealousy is usually born out of a lack of trust and while it happens, even in healthy relationships, it should not be glamorized, and that it should never lead to treating your significant other like you own them (general you here, not you in particular). I'm sorry that it started to evolve into a conversation about you in particular. I never meant for it to come across as an attack, and on rereading my comments I realized I did not make it clear enough that I meant to use your examples as a jumping point for a more general argument. Perhaps in that case I shouldn't have used your examples at all and should have kept it general.

@ Proud Saiyan Warrior
If someone was blatantly hitting on my SO...no, I wouldn't get jealous. Why should I, if I trust my husband? What does it matter to me what attempts other people make to get with him when I know he loves me? Other peoples' shitty actions don't threaten my relationship.

"I trust my partner to the moon and back, but that doesn't mean that he won't ever cheat"

I'm sorry, but to me, trusting someone means trusting that they won't cheat. Hopefully if heaven forbid he develops interest in someone else, he'll be upfront with you about itand do what's necessary to either repair the relationship or end it rather than go behind your back. But if you think there's a chance he'd go behind your back, then that suggests there is an extent to which you don't trust him completely. And yes, that happens, and yes, it's okay, because trust is never just inherently present. But what I'd argue then is that there is a lack of trust present which is creating the jealousy.

I agree that if there IS jealousy in the relationship you should work to fix it in healthy ways, and that that will take time. But getting angry and possessive and treating your SO like a thing you own is not conducive to fixing the problem. It's not healthy. You can get over it with time and it doesn't mean the relationship as a whole is doomed, but it doesn't make treating your boyfriend like a possession healthy and I think everyone deserves to be recognized as a person with autonomy rather than a possession of their SO.

@ AmorarEsDeVivir

Mibba notification just popped up. Wtf Mibbz. Haha

I'm meaning in the case of when another person who is blatantly hitting on you, and your SO get's jealous - Is that not okay? Because I believe it should be. Thats just me of course. The thing with insecurity, is that they just don't go way. I trust my partner to the moon and back, but that doesnt mean that he won't ever cheat and that I don't worry about it, of course I do. I'm more insecure about what other people are saying and doing to him, and it's the same for both of us.

We actually do fight like that all the time. The difference is that we both know it's silly, but it's better to get it out than pretend it isnt there. Better to know it's there and deal with it in our own way (that works) rather than ignore it or just be blind to it until it's too late. If you don't argue in a relationship (in my opinion of course) then that isn't healthy, there has to be SOMETHING you disagree on. Haha. Like I've said before, our relationship isnt normal - but it's far better than any of the vanilla relationships I've ever had. It works for me, wouldnt for others but for me it does. The jealously isnt just going to go away because we trust each other - It's others we don't trust. (Which is a fair assumption, my boyfriends friend just tried to get me to go out with him behind my boyfriends back)

Oh no one should strive for it. But if it's within the person you love, do you just stop loving them because of their insecurities? No. You both work together to fix it slowly.

I trust my boyfriend, and he trusts me, but we don't tell each other a lot of things about each other's day. Why? No need to. We know that we arent up to anything, so there's nothing to tell. That's just how we view it though, tis not a reflection on anyone elses relationships. We don't really talk much about anything else we feel like it - We're both very secretive, which is fine because neither of us pressure each other into the regular conversation of 'how was work' and other stuff. We simply enjoy the company of each other, that's it - Word's arent needed for us.

I'm not talking about that jealously. I'm talking about when someone else (outside the relationship) starts pursuing your partner - would that not bother you? If they were blatantly trying to steer your partner away from you (even if your partner is loyal to you - would t not bother you in the smallest amount?) - Because that's the kind of jealously that's in our relationship, and I find it healthy that my partner can identify when someone else is doing that and he confronts them about it and just has a small talk with me.

Like I said, our relationship is odd and not for everybody. But it works for us, so that's cool. I like knowing that he views me as his, because I view him as mine. Not physically, but spiritually, ya'know? He doesnt believe in marriage, so that's his answer to it - That he owns my soul, and I am completely comfortable with that because he offered his to me as well. Perhaps it's our odd religious views but meh. I suppose that cold be described as possessive in a negative way, but how can it be negative if both parties are consenting and happy to do so?

I haven't heard that song and by god I don't want to know. I agree with you though, on people thinking unhealthy relationships are 'cute', when they're not.

@ Proud Saiyan Warrior
I'm really not sure how you got that I don't think you should be in a relationship. What I said was that if you get angry and possessive whenever your SO talks to someone of the sex they're attracted to, that's not a relationship anyone should be in. It indicates a lack of trust. I've said several times since that insecurity happens but it can be dealt with in healthy ways--and hopefully, eventually, you trust the person enough to be able to get past those insecurities. If not, that could be a problem.

So I guess if you get angry and want to start a fight and treat your significant other like a possession that you have to keep to yourself, then no, I DON'T think you should be in a relationship, because it shows a lack of maturity and it's not fair to the other person to be treated that way. But that's not the vibe I'm getting from you.

What I'm also saying is that while insecurity happens and can be dealt with in healthy ways, it shouldn't be something people strive for, and it disturbs me that we keep getting told over and over again that if someone treats you like a possession and is angry and jealous over you it is somehow proof that they love you. To me, love cannot exist without trust. To me, complete and absolute trust show that the person loves me.

Also, losing your privacy is not what I"m talking about when I say "effective communication." In fact that isn't communication at all. It's coercion. Couples who open up to each other about everything? That's trust. Couples who feel OBLIGATED to open up to each other about everything? That's distrust. That's one or both people needing to know every detail of their SO's day because they can't live without reassurance that there's nothing to worry about. That, you're right, ISN'T healthy. But I don't know anyone who would argue that it is.

As far as not being jealous indicating a lack of interest, that notion has always made me angry and concerned. I'm not jealous of my husband talking to other people, finding other people attractive, or flirting with/being flirted with by other people. Not because I'm not interested, but because I know it's all just harmless and regardless of all that, he loves me and I have no reason to be threatened by it. The fact that people keep reinforcing that jealousy is essential to a relationship in order to suggest interest in the other person is just fucking terrifying and I hear that argument a lot more than I'd like to.

Then again, I do like the possessiveness in my partner - Some people like that, other's don't.

Oh indeed, but what I'm saying is that your statement kinda reads like I should not be in a relationship. I'll give you some details though (btw, I'm not offended or anything, just wondering is all :] )

My partner and I both have major past issues about being cheated on, and all that. Just today, my ex boyfriend tried to get me to go out with him again (despite being my boyfriends friend now) - He was jealous, but he didnt say anything because he didn't want to seem like a dick, even though I know he is and it will eventually come out in an argument later on. I encourage him to voice his jealously - Because if you don't, you'll end up bottling it up and becoming resentful of your partner, even if they've done nothing wrong to deserve it. I believe jealousy is good, and I believe it's good to vent it - If you never get jealous of someone else fawning over your partner, or your partner wanting to go off and be with someone else all the time, that just screams "Not interested" to a lot of people.

Also, if someone is jealous (an adult - I'm not talking teenagers here), it's usually because they have done something wrong and are feeling jealous about you receiving that attention from someone else. My boyfriend feels jealous that other guys pay attention to me, because he knows he's not doing it enough himself - And when he gets jealous, he realizes that it's because he's not doing enough. Jealousy has actually saved our relationship a number of times.

Jealously can be a very good thing, depending on the person of course. But me and my boyfriend will never have what society deems as a 'healthy' relationship because we've been hurt by so many people in our pasts. You'd probably take one look at us and say 'What the hell, no way should they be together'. But it works, and a lot of people need to realize that conventional relationships arent for some people. Just like I find it unhealthy that some couples just spill absolutely everything - Like it's a rite of passage to loose your privacy just because you've gotten into a relationship (this of course does not apply to those who actually just do it because they want to let their partner in, such as you and your partner)

So long as no one's being hurt physically or emotionally, I find it's a stable relationship.

@ PoeticMess.
I think a lot of female artists do that just to say "Look at me, I'm successful AND I'm sexual AND I'm proud of my body; success, self-respect, and sexuality are not mutually exclusive." Not to mention the fact that female sexuality is shamed so much it's kind of a big "eff you" to the media that tells women to hide their bodies. At least, that's how I interpret it in Nicki's case. I could be wrong; I don't know her motives for her presentation of herself. But that's the impression she gives me, based on interviews I've seen (including about why she acts the way she does and about her song Anaconda in particular).

@ AmorarEsDeVivir
Yeah, I like the way she comes across, I just don't think it matches up with what she's putting out there. I just wish her music would be up to par & she'd promote that more than she promotes her ass.

@ PoeticMess.
Hm. I can see where you're coming from. I dunno, that is definitely the impression I can see getting from their stage presence...but I have heard Nicki Minaj speak (I can't speak for Miley though) and she is very progressive and a strong feminist so I don't have an issue with her. She talks about sexuality and the double-standards imposed on women, and she is also very trans inclusive when she talks about women which I think is crazy cool, so I respect her personally.

@ AmorarEsDeVivir
See, I'm the opposite. When I see Nicki and Miley, I see women using their bodies to get ahead instead of their brains. The music industry is tough, but they're saying "I can't do it using my head, so why should you see me as anything different than something attractive?" I'm all for women doing whatever they want with their bodies with whoever, but it's not a step in the right direction when women objectify themselves before men can.

It's like, "let me show you how great my body is rather than my music." It's a shame because I'm sure they could put something decent into the world if they wanted to.

@ PoeticMess.
I honestly don't have nearly as much a problem with Nicki Minaj and Miley Cyrus. Not a big fan of their music at all, but if they want to send a message to young people that it's okay to be a sexual person and that you can be sexual and still respect yourself, that's totally fine by me. Personally I wish more people got that message rather than "if you have sex or are open about sex or dress sexy or act sexual then you are a whore with no self-respect." I don't necessarily know that I agree with HOW they go about that message, but I don't have a problem with the message itself. Meanwhile, I am terrified every time I hear a teenage girl or young woman say that she wishes she had a boyfriend like Edward Cullen.

It's totally fine to LIKE things that are problematic. Lord knows I like a lot of songs and movies and stuff that have horrible messages in them, most of them sexist. But it's important to recognize that it's problematic, and my issue with this song stems from the fact that it's casting the unhealthy nature of this relationship in a positive light. I hate that it's such a popular belief that jealousy and possessiveness are forms of affection, and I wish it would just stop.

@ AmorarEsDeVivir
I don't really know how I feel about it. I mean, in theory, I'm like "No, it's bad, little girls are gonna want this" and then on the other hand I'm like, "as humans, we crave more than looks, so in the end, 'you're so sexy, beautiful' can't work as an excuse for very long unless there's something deeper."

& as for Twilight and 50 Shades, I like them both. I understand where the apprehension comes from for both, but there are other ways of looking at them. In both books, the weird, creepy, abusive part is just on the surface. There's so much more to be analyzed there. (Not trying to start another controversial topic or anything! :P)

Also, I think there's a difference between fictitious "bad examples" and real life influences. The song & books are fictions. They're about people that never existed, and I understand that they still have influence over young people (a lot), but I know that people like Nicki Manaj and Miley have more. They truly believe what they're doing is empowering for women. While these songs and books and just for enjoyment. They're not made to make a grand statement.

I think that's a huge difference.

It may be easier to criticism songs and novels than real people because on the surface they seem so obviously wrong, but these women are more wrong, even if it's harder to identify.

@ dylan o'brien;
:) thank you. Just trying to explain what I think! hah

@ PoeticMess.
I just feel really uncomfortable with a song that literally says "I know I am unreasonably jealous and possessive but I think it's totally acceptable and I hold no responsibility for it because YOU'RE PRETTY so I'm just going to defend my jealousy to show you how much I care." Like. No. Not healthy.

And yeah, I realize there are plenty of other problems in pop culture, but with things like this, and Twilight, and even 50 Shades, and more than that I'm sure that I'm not as familiar with, there is a LOT of stuff out there promoting unhealthy relationships (and in some cases downright abusive ones) as idealistic and romantic and that's scary to me.

@ PoeticMess.
I concur with your statement.

@ AmorarEsDeVivir
Yeah I understand that! It's a good point. I completely agree, it's just not the vibe I got from the song when I listened to it. But I can definitely see that and can't disagree with you when you say that. It does suggest that and that's the take a lot of people are going to get from it.

Jealously is sickening to me. It's childish and annoying. I wish more people thought of it that way, rather than it being endearing. So I agree with what you're saying.

@ PoeticMess.
I dunno, the song literally starts out with "I don't like the way he's looking at you." If someone looking at your significant other in a way that might possibly suggest they find them attractive is enough to make someone put on a big macho front and get possessive, that's not a healthy degree of jealousy.

Not that I personally believe there is a "healthy" level of jealousy; just that in small amounts it generally doesn't cause problems, especially if it's dealt with appropriately.

But yeah, what I'm addressing isn't necessarily worrying about losing someone. Like I mentioned in other comments, insecurity happens. But insecurity doesn't have to--and really shouldn't--lead to jealousy and possessiveness.

My problem with this song is less with the idea of the existence of jealousy and more with the promotion of jealousy being somehow a signifier of a stronger love. It isn't. It lacks trust. I understand that it happens sometimes, but it shouldn't be something people look for in a relationship and it shouldn't be portrayed as a form of affection.

@ dylan o'brien;
I disagree. I understand jealousy happens, but it's important to recognize the insecurities that spawn the jealousy and remind yourself that you trust your partner and there's no reason to be intimidated by their interactions with other people. I personally could never stay in a relationship that included any degree of possessiveness. Even when I had jealousy issues early on in my relationship with my husband, there was never anger or "he's mine" type of mentality--I was just worried about an ex that still had feelings for him, told him that I felt insecure about it, and asked him for comfort. And I recognize that even though I dealt with the jealousy in a healthy way, the jealousy itself was not healthy. Like I said, jealousy happens and there are healthy ways of dealing with it, but it shouldn't be romanticized as an ideal of a relationship.

@ Proud Saiyan Warrior
I'm...really not sure what to make of your statement about communication. You find jealousy more healthy than communication? I genuinely don't understand. I mean, I consider my relationship very healthy, and we DO open up to each other about everything. It's not because we feel like we have to. It's because we like telling each other what's going on in our heads, and being open and communicating about any problems we're having. I feel like effective communication has nothing to do with feeling like you have to tell each other everything in order to trust each other and everything to do with just...being able to talk out problems so they don't lead to bigger problems.

Also there is a difference between insecurity and jealousy/possessiveness. One can lead to the other, certainly, but there are healthier ways of coping with it--like acknowledging the insecurity and, yes, talking about it--rather than the way it's portrayed in this song, which is that jealousy is something that the speaker doesn't have to take accountability for and indeed has a "right" to, to the point of possessiveness and "hellishness" (in the singer's own words), and expecting that to be a good thing because it supposedly means he loves her. When you love someone, you don't treat them like a possession, and you trust them, and when you DO get insecure, you talk about it rather than letting it lead to the kind of jealousy that causes anger and aggression.