Gay Marriage

@ dru is on fire.

dru is on fire.:

I'm sick of the government trying to tell me who I can marry.

Agreed. It's not their choice.

I am sick and tired of government taking away PERSONAL rights.

If I can't marry the one person I want to grow old with, just because of a trait I was born with, then i'd rather move to fucking Canada. They have bagged milk and everyone is open minded and kind in Ontario. Its ridiculous- homosexuals have been around since the dawn of time and then here we are in the 21st century: half of us getting shut down and singled out because of our voice and the way were born just because of something that shouldn't even have any affect at all for someone else's life.

Me being gay. How am I affecting your life? Am I robbing you? Am I a wanted criminal? No. I'm just like you.

You say that its a sin to be homosexual or anything in the LGBT community for that matter- but what about the sins committed everyday not to eat pig? Not to wear mixed fabrics? The people not being killed because they don't believe in god?

Edited by Moderator.

OurNameInStars:

Edited by Moderator

I am a non-straight Christians who does not believe homosexuality is a sin or that God holds any sort of judgment against non-straight individuals.

However, what you said in the quote is so incredibly offensive and cruel. If you want someone who is a Christian to be kind to you, how do you expect them to when you are mocking them and their faith. I don't think an absence of God, but rather presence of Satan is the cause for the things you listed. Additionally, everyone should "pick their own ass up" because God helps those who help themselves.

I'm all for coexisting, but you have to be kind if you want kindness.

@ dru is on fire.
I honestly don't care for their kindness, thank you. I'm sick and tired of all the Christians I meet just putting me down like scum. I'm not gonna stand there and take it like a rag doll, of course I'll retaliate. Really, the kindness of any Christian when it comes to my sexuality alone, I don't need it nor will I ever.

@ OurNameInStars
I understand that, but I've just stated I'm a non-hateful Christian and you are still spewing your hate at people like me. I am a kind-hearted person who does not judge people for pettiness, but I hate it when I get hatred for doing absolutely nothing wrong. how is that fair?

dru is on fire.:

I understand that, but I've just stated I'm a non-hateful Christian and you are still spewing your hate at people like me. I am a kind-hearted person who does not judge people for pettiness, but I hate it when I get hatred for doing absolutely nothing wrong. how is that fair?

Groups that are by and large oppressed by other groups can respond however they like, however allows them to get by. If a POC wants to hate all white people or a woman wants to hate all men it'd be nice if less energy went into harassing them with "they're not all bad!!" and more went into making the world a place where they didn't need to feel like that i.e. by removing the oppression. They don't need to hear why there are exceptions to the rule, they need the rule to break. Being "hated" by a minority (which here amounted to her expressing her opinion on a discussion board) is hardly equal to what discriminated groups face.

Over people trying to silence legitimate anger with "you're being counter-oppressive!"-esque arguments.

@ pravda.
I'm sorry, but to me the definition of "coexist" means everyone tries to get along and people who are cruel to Christians do not exist in the spirit of coexistence.

I'm not saying she can't hate every Christian on the planet. That's her right, just like it's the right of hateful "Christians" to hate every gay person on the planet.

But I stand by the statement that you aren't not going to have people treat you nicely if you treat them like shit. And you will never know who was willing to treat you with respect and dignity if you insist on insulting them and being rude based off prejudices.

Sorry, but I don't think Allies should work for cookies. Being polite isn't going to make bigots shift their opinion. And she was discussing her experience. Let her be angry at that.

@ pravda.
I didn't have an issue with her experience, but the mocking of God and faith. "Where is your God now?" and things like that. I read the rest of her post with interest before that. (And clearly, I'm not the only one who took issue as that part of the post was removed.)

I just don't understand why we can't fight discrimination without being discriminatory ourselves.

I'm a feminist but I don't insult all men.

Also, I don't think I'm considered an "Ally" as I'm a non-straight individual. I'm part of the community.

I don't think Christianity needs any kindness when it comes to homophobia and oppression of LGBT rights. By kindly accepting homophobic opinions, we enable them. At some point we have to say no, that's enough, I do not accept or respect your opinion. It's not okay to go on TV all call gay people abominations/fags and it's not okay to say gay marriage will destroy America. It's not okay to preach to a pulpit of people that they should abandon their gay kids. It's not okay to harass gay people on the streets and abuse them in the name of your God. The way (America in particular) coddles anti-gay opinions in the name of religion is just ridiculous. I see allegedly liberal news media with hateful homophobic guests, and they're treated as though they're some kind of expert on the matter- as though they're legitimate. All "kindness" and respect does is give them the platform they need to spew hate.

Criticizing a faith does not equal mocking it. Criticizing God does not equal mocking God... though to be honest I don't think mocking God is hateful or cruel... that's dramatic. "Where is your God now?" is a legitimate question when you're an LGBT youth who became homeless. "Where is your God now?" is a legitimate question when you just got the shit knocked out of you because you had the audacity to kiss your boyfriend/girlfriend in public. Asking questions like that is not discrimination (and criticizing your God is not discriminating against you). To claim that's discrimination is mocking any group that's legitimately discriminated against.

@ dru is on fire.

Framing not being homophobic as "kindness" or "politeness" or "treating people nicely" misconstrues homophobic violence. Not supporting "conversion therapy" camps for children and teenagers, not demanding that firing someone simply because of their sexuality should be perfectly legal, not insisting that LGBT families are unnatural abominations who'll destroy healthy hetero families and as such shouldn't be given rights etc etc is not being selfless or kind or polite, it's being an ordinary human being who doesn't get off hurting millions of people for absolutely no reason.

@ Kurtni
I don't think we need to give any kindness to hateful discriminatory Christians and I never once said or alluded to it in my post. The only point I was trying to make is that if you off spouting prejudiced about a group, you may never know who in that group was willing to treat you with respect and dignity because they were just treated without either so why would they return them?

This has nothing to do with hateful individuals who have the audacity to call themselves Christians.

I should have used the term prejudiced instead of discrimination. "I don't understand why we can't fight prejudice without enforcing more prejudice." (Prejudging Christians all being hateful anti-gay bigots IS a prejudiced idea.)

@ kafka.
Yeah, and . . . ? I was making the point that, perhaps, we should treat all people with dignity and respect before we meet them or know their stories. I don't see how that enforces homophobia . . .

@ dru is on fire.

It enforces homophobia because you keep equating homophobia with bad manners as though endangering my life and arriving late at a meeting are the same thing?

@ kafka.
I never equated homophobia with bad manners. I did equate insulting an entire religion as bad manners.

I don't think criticizing God or a religion is prejudice either, nor is saying "I'm sick and tired of all the Christians I meet just putting me down like scum. " In this world, especially depending on where you live in the US, it's entirely possible to encounter nothing but bigoted Christians. It's entirely possible to face discrimination and abuse every single day at the hands of Christians. Being defensive against Christians, even judging them, is just self preservation if you're part of the LGBT community.

I don't think we need to give the Christian majority the benefit of the doubt- as the group in power, it's up to the "good" Christians to show they are allies and support LGBT rights. LGBT can't just sit around and hope someone/some church is made of nice Christians.

@ Kurtni
But you're creating two very different and distinct groups. Not everyone is one or the other. There are people of faith who are GLBT and what group do they fall into and how do they work into your equation of 'show gay people (like you) that you don't hate gay people (even though you're straight)'. Well, uh, I'm not straight so how much do I really need to prove I'm a member of that community to prove I'm not a homophobe?

---

Being a Christian sometimes makes me feel like I'm not allowed to be pansexual or vice versa.

@ dru is on fire.
I don't know, that's a tough question. I don't think you, as a member, need to "prove" anything, but could you really blame anyone for being distrustful when there are "gay" Christians who support conversion therapy or flat out sexual repression?

@ dru is on fire.

What did you mean by, for example,

Quote

I stand by the statement that you aren't not going to have people treat you nicely if you treat them like shit.

if you didn't mean that homophobia is just "bad manners" and "not being nice"? You clearly equate homophobia with rudeness and repeatedly say if you're not "nice" to Christians, you probably deserve homophobic abuse.

Nobody's saying you "can't" be a Christian, I'm a Christian - we're just saying that you should have more sympathy for queer people who feel angry and frustrated with Christians because they've been subjected to so much abuse by them. You know, kindness, humbling yourself, thinking about others more than about yourself - all of these seem like Christian values to me?

@ kafka.
I NEVER SAID ANYONE DESERVED HOMOPHOBIC ABUSE FOR ANY REASON.

I will not let you put such vile words in my mouth.

I said that if you immediately attack people, they probably will not be kind to you and that is exactly what I meant. I meant that if a person like her started spewing off the Christians insults to a person LIKE ME then they probably will not be met with kindness. I'm not saying that if a person like her started spewing off that shit she deserves homophobic hate. I'm saying someone like me will not be all "I love you" when you shit talk my religion, regardless of sexuality.

See, normally I would reply with something about how God doesn't hate gay people and explain the bible verses and why they don't actually mean what they're interpreted to, etc etc. But now I'm just so offended by what was said that I don't want to say those things, I just feel like I've been attacked and have no desire to help.