Abortion

die Bienen Knie:

No, but I think they should put their child up for adoption - I'm sure someone would be happy to raise him/her.

So, now, not only do you get to tell a woman she can't make choices about her body, you're also making decisions about what she needs to do when she has the child she doesn't want?

Maybe you think the government should have the right to tell you who to fuck and how to fuck and where to sleep and where to take a shit, but I don't. If the government has the right to tell me I cannot remove an unwanted parasite from my body, then where does it stop? Do they have the right to tell me how many children I can have a year? What kind of birth control I can use? [Oh, wait, they already tried that in Mississippi . . .]

Alex; subterfuge.:

^ Except that the amount of children put up for adoption absolutely dwarfs the amount of couples willing to adopt. And it's not even enough to be willing, all sorts of paperwork and checks have to be done in order to be considered. Then there's a large waiting list, etc.

This. So much. I can't stand reading the adoption debate when talking abortion. There are thousands of children in the Irish system that have been there for 3+ years, and no one is adopting them. It is not OK to add to this system.

Edward Teach:

This. So much. I can't stand reading the adoption debate when talking abortion. There are thousands of children in the Irish system that have been there for 3+ years, and no one is adopting them. It is not OK to add to this system.

Finding an adoptive home for a newborn infant is easy; there are a plethora of couples looking to adopt newborns and not enough infants. Infants put up for adoption, a planned adoption that is, rarely ever make it into a state foster care system because their adoption is planned before they're even born, so they're not adding to the system. That's not really a valid criticism of adoption as an alternative to abortion (though there are many others...).

druscilla sings.:

Original thread ishere deleted.

Abortion.
For or against?
Why?
Do you think it's okay only in certain situations?

Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy.

I'm for it. I think it should be legal in any situation.

NevadasGrace:

I'm for it. I think it should be legal in any situation.

30 weeks into a pregnancy? Partial birth abortions?

Kurtni:

Finding an adoptive home for a newborn infant is easy; there are a plethora of couples looking to adopt newborns and not enough infants. Infants put up for adoption, a planned adoption that is, rarely ever make it into a state foster care system because their adoption is planned before they're even born, so they're not adding to the system. That's not really a valid criticism of adoption as an alternative to abortion (though there are many others...).

But couples only want to adopt healthy white newborns. Sad, but true.

druscilla sings.:

But couples only want to adopt healthy white newborns. Sad, but true.

There is an inherent bias in the adoption system in the UK concerning ethnicity from the start. From my knowledge (which may be out of date) the British system has a tendency of being hesitent to allow mixed ethnicity adoption.

Similarly, oddly, only two percent of adoptions in the UK are for children under the age of a year old. So...

Kurtni:

Finding an adoptive home for a newborn infant is easy; there are a plethora of couples looking to adopt newborns and not enough infants. Infants put up for adoption, a planned adoption that is, rarely ever make it into a state foster care system because their adoption is planned before they're even born, so they're not adding to the system. That's not really a valid criticism of adoption as an alternative to abortion (though there are many others...).

Depending on where you live, of course. The most popular adoption age here is 3+. Out of the 200 hundred children adopted last year, 3 were under the age of 1 and that's not because there aren't enough of them, it's because legally, the requirements to adopt are changing. Realistically, it's not financially easy to own children any more. Adoption agencies now want you to have a set major income which, after this years two lovely budgets, people just don't have.

druscilla sings.:

But couples only want to adopt healthy white newborns. Sad, but true.

Exactly true. If I were to adopt, then yeah, I would automatically ask for a white child.

Kurtni:

30 weeks into a pregnancy? Partial birth abortions?

If a major health threat arose, yes.

^
The girl in question said 'any situation' though, which would mean a major health threat wouldn't be necessary, in her eyes [if she meant the literal definition of what she said].

Edward Teach:

If a major health threat arose, yes.

Even then, no ethical doctor performs an abortion; they try to keep the fetus alive in intensive care units because it has rights by that point and the possibility to survive. To say you support abortion, killing the fetus, at that stage is different than supporting the right or necessity to simply end the pregnancy and try other medical options for the fetus.

druscilla sings.:

^
The girl in question said 'any situation' though, which would mean a major health threat wouldn't be necessary, in her eyes [if she meant the literal definition of what she said].

I know. I answered in general.

Kurtni:

Even then, no ethical doctor performs an abortion; they try to keep the fetus alive in intensive care units because it has rights by that point and the possibility to survive. To say you support abortion, killing the fetus, at that stage is different than supporting the right or necessity to simply end the pregnancy and try other medical options for the fetus.

Ethical/ethics - one of the main roots that fuels the abortion debate itself. Despite my ethics or any others, what I feel or you feel, partial abortion happens.

winnie the dru bear.:

But couples only want to adopt healthy white newborns. Sad, but true.

That's not necessarily true. I know a few families that have adopted unhealthy children from places such as Russia, China, and the Ukraine. They are probably a minority, but do not generalize and say that everybody only wants healthy white babies.

maylene.:

That's not necessarily true. I know a few families that have adopted unhealthy children from places such as Russia, China, and the Ukraine. They are probably a minority, but do not generalize and say that everybody only wants healthy white babies.

Sorry, but I really did think my hyperbole was obvious.

Edward Teach:

Ethical/ethics - one of the main roots that fuels the abortion debate itself. Despite my ethics or any others, what I feel or you feel, partial abortion happens.

In spite of what I feel, murder and rape happens... that doesn't mean I and the general public can't hold the opinion that it's wrong, and it can and is still treated as a crime. If doctors perform partial birth abortions so late in the term to where the fetus could theoretically survive, they risk being criminally prosecuted, for malpractice if not murder. That's not my opinion on the matter, it's merely what happens. Though, I'm completely supportive of partial birth abortion bans. Once a fetus emerges from the womb, and is no longer dependent on the mother, it's entitled to health care in my opinion.

Kurtni:

In spite of what I feel, murder and rape happens... that doesn't mean I and the general public can't hold the opinion that it's wrong, and it can and is still treated as a crime. If doctors perform partial birth abortions so late in the term to where the fetus could theoretically survive, they risk being criminally prosecuted, for malpractice if not murder. That's not my opinion on the matter, it's merely what happens. Though, I'm completely supportive of partial birth abortion bans. Once a fetus emerges from the womb, and is no longer dependent on the mother, it's entitled to health care in my opinion.

And no one's telling you that you can't have that opinion. You're completley entitled to it.

Edward Teach:

And no one's telling you that you can't have that opinion. You're completley entitled to it.

I understand that; it just seemed like you implied it was pointless to hold a stance against partial birth abortion (or any ethical issue, with that logic) because it still happens. I just disagree with that, seeing as how partial birth abortion legislation is a relatively recent and on going thing, due in part to public opinion and advocacy.

Just out of curiosity, why do you support partial birth abortion, as opposed to early delivery to save the woman's life and providing neonatal care to the premature baby?

Kurtni:

I understand that; it just seemed like you implied it was pointless to hold a stance against partial birth abortion (or any ethical issue, with that logic) because it still happens. I just disagree with that, seeing as how partial birth abortion legislation is a relatively recent and on going thing, due in part to public opinion and advocacy.

Just out of curiosity, why do you support partial birth abortion, as opposed to early delivery to save the woman's life and providing neonatal care to the premature baby?

That wasn't the intention at all. A misunderstandin, I see.

I only support partial birth abortion in the rare case in which there is no hope. By all mean, if a child can be saved I'd be on board for saving it.

Edward Teach:

That wasn't the intention at all. A misunderstandin, I see.

I only support partial birth abortion in the rare case in which there is no hope. By all mean, if a child can be saved I'd be on board for saving it.

Ok, good to know.

If you perform a partial birth abortion, that's what means there is no hope because it will necessarily die; if it's an abortion, no medical care will be attempted on the fetus or baby or whatever you consider it after it exits the womb. If you're already vaginally delivering the fetus (which is what happens in intact dilation and extraction), I see no reason why there would be no hope or no reason to not admit the fetus/baby as a patient along with the mother if it exits the womb alive.

winnie the dru bear.:

Maybe you think the government should have the right to tell you who to fuck and how to fuck and where to sleep and where to take a shit, but I don't. If the government has the right to tell me I cannot remove an unwanted parasite from my body, then where does it stop? Do they have the right to tell me how many children I can have a year? What kind of birth control I can use? [Oh, wait, they already tried that in Mississippi . . .]

A fetus is not a 'parasite' by anything resembling a scientific definition of the word. Like when it's used to denote homeless or disabled people (and it's used in that way very often which only makes your argumentation even more distasteful) its purpose is to dehumanise and to dissociate, not to give an objective definition of a term. Of course, there's no need to dehumanise something that is not human or to dissociate yourself from something with which you have no attachment, your discourse just goes to show that it takes a great effort to make abortion a morally unambiguous act and consequently that it can't be morally unambiguous.

^
Parasite - An organism that lives in or on another organism (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the host's expense.

Sounds like a fetus. And if it's unwanted, it's definitely a parasite in the case of the mother. At the mother's expense, another organism lives in her and benefits from her food.