Abortion

@Alex; periphery.

...

Oh, wow, how silly and idiotic we women are when we demand that our male 'allies' actually do something to support us instead of being just tokenly supportive whenever it serves their own interests - we should just shut up and let ~benevolent~ men like you take care of us because everybody knows our tiny womanly brains can't handle serious discussions, right?

You say you would have 'no issue with anti-abortion women refusing to have an abortion if it's their belief that it's wrong', but you've posted on this thread several times (e.g.) telling female members how completely wrong they are in thinking that abortion is wrong - to me that sounds like you'd have plenty of issues with women's opinions, and by extension their choices, when they disagree with yours.

@ kafka.
A pro-choice individual thinks a person should have the choice to abort or not abort. Which means that if Alex is pro-choice like he says he is, he will support a woman's choice to abort or not abort. But he does not support women who are trying to force other women to not have a choice. You make it sound like an alien concept, but all he's doing is supporting our right to choice. There's nothing wrong with that.

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to tell someone they aren't allowed to have an opinion because they have a dick.

kafka.:

You say you would have 'no issue with anti-abortion women refusing to have an abortion if it's their belief that it's wrong', but you've posted on this thread several times (e.g.) telling female members how completely wrong they are in thinking that abortion is wrong - to me that sounds like you'd have plenty of issues with women's opinions, and by extension their choices, when they disagree with yours.

So it's ok for women to oppress the rights of other women, but not acceptable for men to stand up for the rights of women? The dramatic leaps you're taking to twist his opinion have no solid basis in what he actually said anymore, it seems like you're just on a sarcastic, sexist rampage against men.

You're making this an issue of gender (saying he has an issue with women's opinions) when really it's not; he has an issue with opinions that oppress the right to an abortion, whether they come from men or women. How anti-feminist to imply women cannot handle men disagreeing with them and we need to be treated fragilely when we express our opinions.

Also, the post you linked doesn't even evidence what you're saying- thinking abortion is wrong on a personal choice level and thinking abortion is wrong for everyone are not the same thing. The people who think abortion is wrong for everyone are the people oppressing women.

kafka.:

We should just shut up and let ~benevolent~ men like you take care of us because everybody knows our tiny womanly brains can't handle serious discussions, right?

No, not at all. And I think you know for a fact that that's not what I was saying.

kafka.:

You say you would have 'no issue with anti-abortion women refusing to have an abortion if it's their belief that it's wrong', but you've posted on this thread several times (e.g.) telling female members how completely wrong they are in thinking that abortion is wrong - to me that sounds like you'd have plenty of issues with women's opinions, and by extension their choices, when they disagree with yours.

I would've thought that it should be quite apparent that there is a very palpable distinction between telling someone that they are wrong to think abortion is wrong and telling someone that they are wrong to refuse to have an abortion.

The statement that "abortion is wrong" is a dangerous one, because it blankets all situations in which abortion might be considered, no matter what the reason(s) are why a particular woman might be considering it. Plus, it's a belief that often comes with the compulsion to take away other women's choices. That's why I disagree with it.

However, when a woman refuses to have an abortion herself due to a belief that it's wrong, that's not an issue, because, again, it's her right to choose.

of dru's being.:

A pro-choice individual thinks a person should have the choice to abort or not abort. Which means that if Alex is pro-choice like he says he is, he will support a woman's choice to abort or not abort. But he does not support women who are trying to force other women to not have a choice.

Kurtni:

He has an issue with opinions that oppress the right to an abortion, whether they come from men or women.

Precisely. Thank you.

I think abortion is wrong, but that it's not up to me to decide. All I know is I would never abort, and I would be upset if anyone I knew did and I'd try like hell to convince them otherwise, but in the end unless it's my body, I have no right to say anything or tell them to not do something.

littlebluemacaw:

I think abortion is wrong, but that it's not up to me to decide. All I know is I would never abort, and I would be upset if anyone I knew did and I'd try like hell to convince them otherwise, but in the end unless it's my body, I have no right to say anything or tell them to not do something.

I think you're contradicting yourself there. You said if someone you knew wanted one, you'd try like hell to convince them otherwise 'but I have no right to say anything or tell them to not do something'. Does that mean you know you shouldn't but you would anyway?

That sounds to me like "I know they're entitled to a choice, but I want to make them feel like dirt along the way."

I read it as, 'I'd be upset and try to convince them not to do it but ultimately would realise that it's not my decision and I have to accept whatever they decide in the end.'

@ The Rumor

Same. That's how I read it too. I do think someone can try to convince someone to not have an abortion without making the woman feel horribly. I mean I don't agree they should be trying to convince them in the first place, but I do certainly think it can be done without intentionally making the woman feel like bad.

of dru's being.:

I think you're contradicting yourself there. You said if someone you knew wanted one, you'd try like hell to convince them otherwise 'but I have no right to say anything or tell them to not do something'. Does that mean you know you shouldn't but you would anyway?

Well, in a sense. I wouldn't go overboard trying to stop them, but I'd still try at least a little bit. If in the end they choose to abort, I'd shut up and accept that it's not my decision.

And no, I wouldn't make them feel like dirt along the way. Or, I wouldn't purposely make them feel like dirt.

@ littlebluemacaw
Do you think someone should try to convince you to have an abortion 'just a little bit' if you get pregnant?

@ of dru's being.
People tried to convince me a little bit. I respect them for that because I understand why they thought it would be better (and was prepared for it) but knew I would never actually have one. I think the right person challenging you at that point can be a good thing because it makes you consider everything, which you have to do when you're pregnant. I'm glad they challenged me because it made me more sure of my decision. Note, the right person: relative or friend, yes, complete stranger, no.

@ The Rumor
Well, at PP they do that. They advise you of all your options and speak to you to make sure you feel you're making the right decision for you.

I just feel if someone were to talk to you, the proper thing to do would be to discuss all options instead of the individual's own personal bias.

But I also think any unsolicited advice about your medical condition is rude.

@ of dru's being.
I agree that a medical health professional trying to convince you based on their personal bias is completely out of line. I had that too and it put me off sexual health clinics completely, which is less than helpful.

With friends or family members it is different, though. Talking to my mum, we discussed that she thought an abortion might be the better/easier option for me, as did my dad and sister. I took everything they said on board and thought about it but ultimately made the right decision for me. Then again, I'm very close to my family and I don't think any advice they give me is necessarily unsolicited because that's how we are together. Especially when we are discussing my medical condition at the time.

I think that having all the information includes considering what it might be like to do what you don't want. Only then can you really decide what path is right.

@ The Rumor
My mom is my best friend, so I can see her giving me a whole bunch of advice (including abortion) if I were to get pregnant. But talking about friends or something... I consider that unsolicited.

@ of dru's being.
Yeah, that's exactly my point. I think it completely depends on the relationship you have with someone. That being said, all the people I wouldn't discuss it with are people I didn't tell until I was well into my second trimester anyway.

I guess everyone's different. I mean, if I were to get pregnant now I know for a fact that my family and close friends would put their two cents into the situation, I'd definitely listen to what they had to say too. I may not agree with what they're saying but I wouldn't hold it against them for sharing their opinion, because in the end it's my choice.

@ Jewel Nicole
I'm the opposite. It would be such a difficult decision for me that anyone's bias rearing it's head in my direction would just make me angry and hostile.

Should the absolutely impossible happen and I did end up pregnant, I doubt I would let anyone know and just get rid of it. Not that I think anyone I know would hold it against me. I'd say the only thing that would make me think twice would be if I was told that this would be my only chance of having a child. I don't think I want children anyway but you don't know what lies ahead. Thankfully, it's hardly a very possible issue for me.

I suppose I could consider myself pro-choice. While I feel like abortion isn't the best way, in cases of rape or other situations against the pregnancy continuing, I wouldn't see it as wrong. Adoption, while a seemingly better choice than abortion in some cases, can also be a horrible option considering the child's possible fate in such a facility. Not all adoption agencies are to be trusted, and terrifying things happen in those homes including abuse. I wouldn't judge if a woman aborted a child because she really, really felt that she had to. Personally, I don't think I could go through with the process if faced with an unexpected pregnancy.