Abortion

@ dru is beautiful.

I disagree.

@ Damon Salvatore;
Do you have statistics to back anything up?

I have Guttmacher statistics to back up my claims about birth control, the emotions women feel, and repeat abortions. When you say you disagree, do you have any statistical data?

As I understand it, your country only allows abortion in incredibly rare cases that would save the life of the mother, so I am using stats for the United States.

Reasons for Abortion:
The reasons women give for having an abortion underscore their understanding of the responsibilities of parenthood and family life. Three-fourths of women cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals; three-fourths say they cannot afford a child; three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.

Feeling of relief for being denied abortion vs getting one
And while 90% of women who obtained a near-limit abortion reported feeling relief, 49% of those turned away expressed regret.

Majority of women getting abortions used birth control in the month they got pregnant
Most commonly condoms (27%) or a hormonal method (17%)

On repeat abortion:
According to the 2006 Guttmacher Institute report Repeat Abortion in the United States, women having a second or higher-order abortion are substantially different from women having a first abortion in only two important ways: They are more than twice as likely to be age 30 or older and, even after controlling for age, almost twice as likely to already have had a child. (Among all women having an abortion, six in 10 are mothers.)
(Sounds more like a concerned mother than a la-de-dah party girl.)

Additionally, I found it interesting that women whose first sexual experience was NOT voluntary were more likely to have multiple abortions.

(Source site here and here.)

@ Damon Salvatore;
That is such a widespread myth, the whole notion that by decriminalizing abortion women will use it as a contraceptive.

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half of all women getting abortions report that contraception was used during the month they became pregnant (1). Some of these couples had used the method improperly; some had forgotten or neglected to use it on the particular occasion they conceived; and some had used a contraceptive that failed. No contraceptive method prevents pregnancy 100% of the time.

If abortion were used as a primary method of birth control, a typical woman would have at least two or three pregnancies per year - 30 or more during her lifetime. In fact, most women who have abortions have had no previous abortions (52%) or only one previous abortion (26%) (2). Considering that most women are fertile for over 30 years, and that birth control is not perfect, the likelihood of having one or two unintended pregnancies is very high.

Original source: here.

Cited sources:
(1)
(2)

@ dru is beautiful.
Oh I don't disagree with your data... I'm sure it's all accurate :) I just disagree with the feelings you express on what is and isn't disrespectful. I should have stated that - my mistake.

@ Damon Salvatore;
I'm sorry, but what is respectful about saying "I know what the data says, but I'm just going to assume women have no emotions when it comes to one of the most emotion decisions of their life?" it's like saying "I know not all women like dolls, but you are a woman so you like dolls despite you showing me data and stating you don't like dolls".

@ dru is beautiful.

Can you please quote where I said "... women have to emotions when it comes to one of the most emotion decisions in their life?".

@ Damon Salvatore;
"Do you not feel that this will lead to the 'Ooopsies, I'm preggers. Better go get me an abortion!' attitude; which ultimately leads to an immense amount of carelessness , wasted resource and dangers to oneself?"

Which kind of reads as a la-de-dah approach to getting an abortion. You used the word "carelessness" which suggest a lack of responsibility. It also suggests a very cavalier attitude and lack of emotional feeling toward the situation.

Not to mention you also imply that is an attitude that is established. It is not an attitude. You referred to it as "the attitude". The to me seems established and well-known, despite the fact that there is no evidence to suggest such a cavalier repeat abortion attitude.

So no, I did not say women have no emotions when it comes to this. Instead that's how you've interpreted it. So I will clear that and tell you I do not think women are emotionless.

@ Damon Salvatore;
But you do think they have la de dah feelings regarding abortions? Or a carelessness that is emotional? I don't understand. How can women be so emotional about a decisions they're going 'lol oopsie preggerz time for abortion lulz' about?

@ dru is beautiful.

No. I asked another user if they felt their opinion is one that would lead to that.

@Damon Salvatore

I believe people rarely have attitudes like that when getting an abortion. People aren't going to get an abortion just because. The reason I said that even wishing not to be pregnant was valid was because pregnancy is complicated and actually quite scary. I don't really ever want to remain pregnant if I ever fall pregnant, because the concept freaks me out. I could change my mind but I respect people for their choice. I have been pro choice for awhile and that's how I'll stay. I take abortion seriously, I don't go ''Lol abortion''.

I think it's sad that abortion has to be a political issue. What a woman does with her body should not be something the political system is involved with. I can understand the need for it (there are too few clinics available around the world, and those that are available are swamped with abusive pro-life protestors), but it's just so sad.

Personally, I am not going to ever have an abortion...

However, I understand that there are some circumstances that different people go through and that this process might be necessary. I know that I won't be able to ever understand what another person is going through because I am not walking in their shoes. It's not my place to judge, and I think that abortion can be acceptable up to a certain time during the pregnancy...

I think it should be up to the mother. Simple as that.

I personally have mixed beliefs on the subject. Like for example, if a woman is raped and she ends up getting pregnant, I fully believe that she has every right in the world to get an abortion. Simple as that.

However, if a woman willingly lays down with a man, weather she be on any kind of birth control or not, she takes on the responsibility of knowing she can still get pregnant, just because we all know that birth control can fail at any time. Condoms break, IUD's malfunction, and sometimes the girl just plain forgets to take the pill on time one day. Mistakes happen. But because of that, she should know that if she has sex with a man, she still has the possibility of getting pregnant in which case I think she does not have the right to an abortion. Weather she wanted to get pregnant or not, she should accept her responsibility, step up to the plate and either take care of the kid, or give it up for an adoption. In this specific case, I believe that if the woman were to get an abortion, she wouldn't be taking any form of responsibility at all. Instead, she'd be taking the "easy way out" and just getting rid of it. (Note: this was in no way to imply that abortion is "easy". It was just a figure of speech.)

I've had discussions like this with other hardcore pro-choicers who believe that abortion is okay no matter what the situation, and I've been told that "consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy" and in my mind I just can't help but think, Um, yes it kinda is! Pregnancy comes from having sex, that's kind of the whole point of it.

Also, another side reason why I think a woman who willingly had sex should not get an abortion is because, between the time she finds out she's pregnant and the time she goes into labor, her mindset could change on weather or not she actually wants the baby. I think that her deciding to get an abortion right after finding out she's pregnant was a decision made in haste. It's like that saying goes "Don't make a permanent decision when you're angry."

And what about if something happens to the woman health wise and it turns out after she gets her abortion that she (for whatever reason) cannot have kids anymore, but also after the abortion she realizes "I want kids of my own". She'd most likely be thinking 'If I hadn't of gotten that abortion, I'd have my own son/daughter right about now'. I can only see it as being a regret at some point.

Still, those are my thoughts on the matter, and I apologize if this post was all over the place. I just needed to get my thoughts out there. And it was also in no way to attack anybody or any specific beliefs. These are just my beliefs and my opinions.

asherzx112:

Weather she wanted to get pregnant or not, she should accept her responsibility, step up to the plate and either take care of the kid, or give it up for an adoption.

This argument always seems to sound as if a baby is somehow a punishment for a woman's 'mistakes', which is neither fair on the woman or the baby. I would personally rather that a foetus be aborted than for it to be born to someone who is not ready to raise it. And adoption isn't much better as an alternative, considering the large amounts of unadopted children.

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Instead, she'd be taking the "easy way out" and just getting rid of it. (Note: this was in no way to imply that abortion is "easy". It was just a figure of speech.)

It might have just been a figure of speech, but it still implies that abortion is automatically easier than the alternatives.

But even if we go with the idea that it is easy, why should that matter? Why exactly should the woman have to take the hard route? I don't see the point of the statement, whether it's figurative or not.

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Also, another side reason why I think a woman who willingly had sex should not get an abortion is because, between the time she finds out she's pregnant and the time she goes into labor, her mindset could change on weather or not she actually wants the baby.

Maybe. Maybe not. But the longer you leave it, the less humane it becomes. I think it would be more irresponsible to take a pregnancy into the third trimester on the off-chance that she changes her mind.

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And what about if something happens to the woman health wise and it turns out after she gets her abortion that she (for whatever reason) cannot have kids anymore, but also after the abortion she realizes "I want kids of my own". She'd most likely be thinking 'If I hadn't of gotten that abortion, I'd have my own son/daughter right about now'. I can only see it as being a regret at some point.

I don't see how that's relevant. Women have abortions because they, for whatever reason, are not fit to be a parent at that point in time. Again, I don't see how it would be a good idea to go through with a pregnancy just because one day it might turn out that she wants the kid after all.

@ asherzx112

asherzx112:

Weather she wanted to get pregnant or not, she should accept her responsibility, step up to the plate and either take care of the kid, or give it up for an adoption. In this specific case, I believe that if the woman were to get an abortion, she wouldn't be taking any form of responsibility at all. Instead, she'd be taking the "easy way out" and just getting rid of it. (Note: this was in no way to imply that abortion is "easy". It was just a figure of speech.)

Abortion is not an easy choice. However, that does not mean it is the wrong choice. As well as this, making this decision (whether pregnancy is the right choice or not) indicates the presence of responsibility because it yields a decision of some sort (keeping the pregnancy and raising it afterward, keeping the pregnancy and having someone else raise it afterword, or not keeping the pregnancy. Lack of responsibility would, for example, be shown by a person who does not take care of oneself while pregnant, potentially hurting the growing fetus (doing hard drugs while knowingly pregnant, for one example).

No matter what choice is made, it will be something that will affect the pregnant individual's life.

If it were possible to birth the baby right when a person finds out about the pregnancy, or if the birthing process was not so dangerous and labor intensive, things would be different as far as the idea of pregnancy goes. However, it is not an instant thing, and a pregnant person has to grow another being for nine-ten months.

I, for one, am terrified of pregnancy and childbirth. There are a lot of sacrifices that are supposed to be made to have a healthy pregnancy, and even when things go perfectly, things go wrong (defects, health problems for the mother, etc.). Childbirth is not as safe as people assume.

asherzx112:

Also, another side reason why I think a woman who willingly had sex should not get an abortion is because, between the time she finds out she's pregnant and the time she goes into labor, her mindset could change on weather or not she actually wants the baby. I think that her deciding to get an abortion right after finding out she's pregnant was a decision made in haste. It's like that saying goes "Don't make a permanent decision when you're angry."

It is wrong, again, to assume that abortions are decisions made in haste. A lot of deliberation is often involved when these things happen. However, some people just know it is not the time for a child to be a part of their family (or lack of family). For example, a person who does not feel comfortable raising a child because of mental illness (their personal decision, obviously, I am not against any person raising children if they are comfortable), or drug use, or dangerous lifestyle activities. Some people also know much before they become pregnant that they will never raise children of their own.

asherzx112:

Pregnancy comes from having sex, that's kind of the whole point of it.

That might be true if we as humans only used the instinctual/"animal" part of our brain. We have evolved past that, though, and use our brain for social interaction beyond reproduction. We now do things not only to further the human race for generations, we do things for our generation. That includes doing things that feel good, like sex.

@ asherzx112
So if I were to get pregnant right now I should keep the baby? Even though I'm mentally unfit, too broke, and my boyfriend cheated on me a few months ago and we're still struggling to work our relationship out? (And even though I've been on birth control for three years?) If I consider the weight of my situation and realize that it is not fair to bring a child into this world, I should just go broke, possibly become EVEN MORE depressed, and lose my boyfriend...

That's the easy way out to you?

Most women who get abortions already have a child. They do not have the time or money for another one at the moment. You think the best situation is for them to tell the child they have that they love them and have time for them but don't have it for the other baby, so they're going to give it to strangers to raise? It might work for some families, but it could severely fuck children up in others. Do we care about them at all?

The majority of women report feeling relief after an abortion. Women are denied abortions generally report depression, not relief. Where are you getting your idea that the woman changes her mind and is full of regret? (Statistics source: Guttmacher)

Pregnancy is much more dangerous than abortion. So you are saying a woman needs to do something more dangerous than an abortion, with a higher risk of death. You point out all these reasons you think the woman should have the pregnancy rather than the abortion, but really it's just a statement that she should do something more likely to result in her death. (She is 14x more likely to die during childbirth.) (Source: 1).

@ dru is beautiful.
I'm sorry, but that's what makes me believe that if you're not ready to have a baby in the first place, you shouldn't be having sex. Like I said in my first post, birth control of all sorts can fail at any time, so you take on the responsibility and acknowledge that if you have sex, you have about a 50/50 chance of getting pregnant. If you're too broke, mentally unfit, don't have the time or in a bad relationship at the time, well, then you shoulda thought about all of that before you had sex.

As far as getting my idea that a woman might change her mind and be regretful, that's just my own feelings on how I would feel. If I got an abortion because I didn't want the kid, and then later found out that I, for whatever reason, became sterile and couldn't get pregnant anymore even though I now want one, I would be pissed at myself and I would 100% regret getting that abortion because if I hadn't of gotten it, I would have had a child of my own that came from my own body. I'm not saying that all women will go through that, but because I know there's a lot of other people out there that have the mindset I do about this specific topic, I'm saying that some women could go through it.

And I would much rather see a child be put up for adoption and be put into a loving home with a family that actually wants them, then to be killed outright with no chance or option to live out a life. Hell, there's even options for the mother to find a home for the child before it's even born.

The only other way I can see an abortion being okay if the woman had consensual sex and got pregnant is if the baby was an extreme issue to the mother's health. Like, for example, if the mother's body was rejecting the fetus and she was getting sicker by the day, or another example, severe preclampsia.

I don't know, maybe I personally feel this way about abortion because: Here are all these women getting pregnant and then going off and killing their child just because they either don't want it, or because they're "not ready" in which case, once again, shoulda thought about that before hand. And then here's me who just wants a child of their own, has gotten pregnant twice before, taking a year each time to get pregnant, and only to have them both end up in a miscarriage. Because of this I'm being led to believe that I can't carry a child to term, and yet here's this perfectly good woman who CAN carry their baby to term but CHOOSES not to just because they weren't responsible in the first place. To me, that's just selfish.

@ asherzx112
I strongly disagree. I'm an adult woman and my sex life is not beholden to some hypothetical child that doesn't even exist yet. Sex is not only about procreation. It is also about feeling intimacy with your partner. I am allowed to have sex with whatever consenting adult I want. (I have thought about sex and pregnancy and discussed it with my partner and we have decided we would abort if I were to get pregnant. This is called being a mature adult and thinking about possible choices before the responsibility falls to you.)

By the way, abortion is the termination of a pregnancy, not the murder of a child. This is not the infanticide thread. Murder requires malicious aforethought. Abortion does not.

My mother was adopted. The "loving family" that "wanted" her ... well, she got raped by her adoptive father. Not such a loving choice, is it? It's not all peas and carrots and rainbows when you're talking about adoption, especially if the baby isn't a healthy, white girl (preferably with blue eyes).

I think it's selfish that you don't know the woman or her circumstances, but you think her body is not hers and she doesn't have the right to decide if she is psychologically, mentally, financially, etc. ready for it. So I guess we just have very different ideas of selfishness. I think it's much more selfish to tell near thirty something year old women not to have sex, but if they do that they are human incubators good for nothing but producing children.