Abortion

@ amybh33

So a child is only the woman's punishment for not being competent enough?

Forbidding a woman to abort then is going a great length just to preserve something that in the end is only a "punishment".

It makes zero sense to me.

@ amybh33
First and foremost, I'd like to kindly remind you that this is not a discussion where you should judge people. Please stick to the facts and not assumptions you're making about an individual's life choices or beliefs. I say this because you stated 'you did have control over your body yet failed to exercise that and this is the consequence'. One of the women in this thread already stated that she was on birth control and she was careful, yet she got pregnant.

amybh33:

They cannot amputate a limb just because they choose to.

There's actually no law stopping a woman from amputating a limb just because they feel like it. I mean, their survival odds aren't good because of bleeding out if they don't do it properly, but strictly speaking there's no law against it. Although I do find it interesting that you're comparing a growing fetus with a limb since limbs are inherently non-sentient and have no rights, yet you're trying to claim the opposite for a fetus as for the reasoning why aborting one is wrong.

amybh33:

They cannot sell an organ just because they choose to.

Selling organs is against the law not because of an inherent moral conundrum about organ removal, but because of the fact that if the sale of organs were to be encouraged then disproportionately it would mean that desperate people in poverty would be highly influenced to donate organs regardless of risk. It's against the law because in those circumstances, the person may not truly have as much freedom to choose as someone with better means would. This is proven by people, especially in eastern Asia, that find ways to get through a lot of the medical checks, despite heavy medical problems of their own, and then sell their organs to feed their families.

amybh33:

Suicide is frowned upon even though one might prefer that to living their lives.

Something being frowned upon and something being illegal are two completely different things. Also, in several countries and at least two states, assisted suicide is even legal.

amybh33:

Every woman knows what it is that they are fighting for or against. It's a child.

Technically speaking there is a difference between a blastocyst/fetus and a child, and just because you potentially see them as the same thing doesn't mean the rest of us do.

amybh33:

Those who do not want to have the one growing inside them will ignore that fact as it suits them and do everything in their power to bring others into their own train of thought.

No one is asking you to view the growing fetus as simply a fetus. No one is even asking you to go out and get an abortion. People are just asking you to not infringe upon their right to have that option.

amybh33:

We are not teaching our children that they need to take responsibility for their actions if we ourselves are not. The health of the mother and victims of rape are unique cases they are not the norm but when people are arguing for or against it as a whole they are usually looking towards that, the norm.

No one is saying that we shouldn't have better sex education to teach people about birth control better so that maybe the abortion rate can go down even further. Also, none of us would even be having this discussion if it weren't for the fact that abortion laws are being limited all over the place, sometimes to the point of ridiculousness. We're not arguing about this because we want everyone to get an abortion, we're arguing about this because people on the 'pro-life' side of this won't let us be. They picket clinics, and go to campuses to basically call women murderers and flash up bloody, gruesome photos. They tell women that if they get contraception that they're a slut or a whore. There are people on the pro-life side that equate the pill with abortion and are loudly telling our next generation of women that taking it is wrong or just not effective.

Also, please read my post here, because still no one from the pro-life side has actually answered these questions.

@ Faceless_time
Wow, you stated your opinion reay boldly and proudly. Thank you for that. Too many people just at half of what they're thinking. I agree with your opinion, btw.

@ amybh33

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How many birth control devices, not to mention abstinence, are on the market these days?

No birth control is 100% effective and studies have shown that abstinence, especially in teenagers, does not work to prevent pregnancy. States who try to teach abstinence to their teenagers in Sex Education often have higher rates of teenage pregnancy than States that have an actual Sex Education course. Teenagers will have sex; telling them simply to not have sex and refusing to educate them about sex won't prevent pregnancy or abortion. But Sex Ed is a different subject entirely I suppose.

In actuality, most women who get abortions have used birth control and it failed. Birth control and other contraceptives are not 100% effective; they can and do fail. The idea that most women who get abortions were simply careless and reckless is propaganda against abortion that you really shouldn't believe.

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The arguments that it is not a life yet are ridiculous because if that was so why the fight to have control over it? Every woman knows what it is that they are fighting for or against. It's a child.

Not exactly. A fetus is alive by scientific standards but at the time of abortion, it is alive in the same way something like bacteria is. A fetus cannot feel at the time of abortion. A fetus is not viable at the time of abortion nor is it a sentient life like a human being is. So while yes, the argument that a fetus is not "alive" is incorrect, the argument that a fetus' life is not the same as a sentient human being's life is a correct argument.

Furthermore, at the time of abortion, a fetus is not a "child". Calling a fetus a child is attaching unnecessary emotion to the fetus. If we're speaking in scientific terms, which is what should happen with the legality of abortion, then the correct term to use would be "fetus" and not "child".

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We are not teaching our children that they need to take responsibility for their actions if we ourselves are not.

I always hear pro-lifers say that abortion is not taking responsibility and yet.... I've never seen an explanation as to why. Why do you see it as not taking responsibility? I'm truly curious because I have never understood this logic. Abortion is taking responsibility the same way adoption is. Unless you find adoption to be not taking responsibility as well? Birthing the child, keeping it, putting it up for adoption, or abortion the fetus are all ways of taking responsibility for pregnancy. We are teaching our children to have responsibility. We are also teaching our female children that they are worth more than just becoming mere incubators who shouldn't have any reproductive choices.

Abortion is not an easy choice. Please do not treat it as one.

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The health of the mother and victims of rape are unique cases they are not the norm but when people are arguing for or against it as a whole they are usually looking towards that, the norm.

True, rape and possible death from the pregnancy are not the most common reason. The mental health of a woman is a common reason though. However, your idea that the most common reason is women being irresponsible is simply not true either. As I mentioned before, that is propaganda against abortion and you should not believe such a thing. Most women who get an abortion do so because their contraceptive failed and/or they are not ready for a child. Not everyone is ready financially, responsibly, or mentally to carry a fetus to term.

I can use myself as an example. In reality, the only way I can get pregnant is through rape but lets say that I did get pregnant through consensual sex.... I would terminate the pregnancy if it were to happen now. And it's with a heavy heart that I say that. However, I know keeping the pregnancy would be reckless and irresponsible. Financially, I am not in a good situation. I'm struggling through poverty; I am no where near financially ready for a child. More importantly, I am not mentally nor emotionally ready. I'm in treatment for two mental illnesses. I still live with my parents at 21 because I cannot care for myself properly enough to live on my own. I am having trouble holding down a minimum wage job because the illnesses are so bad. To carry a pregnancy to full term... It would kill me. I know myself; I know the stress and responsibility would drive me to kill myself. Until I have these illnesses under control, I cannot even begin to think of having a child.

Does that not matter? Does the well-being of the woman not matter?

You're so focused on condemning women who have had abortions as irresponsible and the like that you have not stopped to think about the other options. You don't appear to have considered the financial well-being of the woman. You don't appear to have stopped to consider the mental health of the woman. The impression your post gives off is that you think these women are mostly irresponsible. And that's wrong. I truly do implore you to do research on what the reality of abortion is.

Cases like mine are not rare. They are more common than you realize or maybe you even like to admit.

@ January Rose
I'm so confused as to why you haven't responded to quite a few of the replies to you yet you're replying to a practically inactive account that posted their opinion five years ago.

I have a question. Why is it that when an anti-abortion posts a comment, everyone is replying with negative feedback? And when someone posts pro-abortion, 1-2 people respond with mostly positive feedback? Are anti-abortion people allowed to post without having their opinion hated and stomped on??? Because that isn't all fair...

@ CallusedSilk
I'm sorry, I didn't know I had to respond to the ones directed to me. I was just looking though the first page and saw some opions I agree with, so I replied to them. And I'm failing to see why this concerns you...????

@ January Rose
I never said you had to. I just asked why you did. I was just curious as to why you ignored my comment. Also, to comment on your other post? Negative feedback, really? This is a thread to discuss things. If you don't want people to discuss things with you or ask questions, then posting in a discussion thread is really the wrong place to be. Your opinions aren't being hated and stomped on, they're being questioned. I personally did nothing but treat you with respect and ask for clarification and I got ignored for it. Now that I've asked you why you blatantly ignored me, you're suddenly getting snippy with me.

Also, I'm going to say this as clearly as I possibly can. No one in this thread is pro-abortion. Please don't use that term. We're pro-choice, which means that pretty much none of us like abortion, but we do support a woman's right to choose what is best for her life and for her body. That's it. This isn't us going around Oprah style going, "And you get an abortion and you get an abortion! Everybody gets an abortion!" The terms are pro-life and pro-choice.

@ CallusedSilk
I never said that the negative feedback was just from you. I posted it as a general comment.My comment that said "@CallusedSilk" was for you. And the reason I said negative was because it seems negative. I'm not saying all comments are like that, but it seems like quite a few are.

@ January Rose
I know that feedback wasn't toward me. I was pointing out that in general, you've gotten people opening up a dialogue with you and debating with you, but not actually attacking you. I apologize if you see it that way, but that's not what's happening.

@ January Rose
No one on this thread is hating on anyone or being unfair. This portion of the site is for debate and discussion. That's all that is happening here; debate and discussion. Naturally when people are talking about a controversial subject like abortion, people are going to going to respond and debate. It is up to the original poster to respond or not but every user has a right to challenge someone's opinion as long as they do it respectfully.

With that said, most people here respond to a pro-life post because most Mibbians users are pro-choice (note: pro-abortion is usually not a thing; pro-choice does not equate to pro-anortion). Mibba is a liberal website. It would be just like if I posted a pro-choice comment on a conservative site, I should expect most to question my opinion just as I already expect it with every website. People questioning an opinion does not equate to hating on it. They are questioning and wanting to engage in a friendly debate. People respond to what they disagree with or what needs to be responded to.

Personally, I challenge pro-life views because more often than not, they are dangerous to a woman's health and her rights. I challenge what I see needs to be challenged and questioned. I'm not hating on anyone. Simply disagreeing and debating.

@ amybh33
Lets start with the fact that there are approximately 32,000 pregnancies resulting from rape each year.

Let's continue to the fact that a woman can very muh want to control her life without believing a fetus is a child. We know it's alive and has human cells, but that doesn't make it a citizen with rights that can exist without stealing nutrients from my body.

Pregnancy is more dangerous than abortion for someone with no interest in motherhood. (Well, it's more dangerous for all women but the ones that choose to stay pregnant have made the choice to brave the danger).

Why does a woman who doesn't want to be pregnant fight so hard to not be pregnant? Your questions are circular and provide no opportunity for answers that aren't kind of obvious, like the one I have at the beginning of this statement.

If I'm carrying a dead fetus around and want it removed, are you going to say that since I don't think it's a life I shouldn't fight so hard for my bodily autonomy? No. It doesn't make sense.

We fight for bodily autonomy.

Additionally, where is the responsibility for the other party in your post? It's all women's fault apparently, but it takes two to tango. The majority of women who abort use birth control in the month leading up to their abortion, so they are aware of what sex causes and try to prevent it. Birth control isn't perfect.

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Every child should be a wanted child.

My view on this is complicated. Is it possible to be simultaneously pro-life and pro-choice? 'Cause that's kind of my view.

If your child is going to have little to no quality of life because of extensive disability - I mean severe, painful condition that renders the child utterly dependent their whole life - you should have the choice, it is your cross to bear as it were, because it will likely be your responsibility, and you will have to watch that child suffer. Or if you are a victim of rape or abuse - you should have the choice. If you're left with irreparable damage, that child may act as a constant reminder.

But I think if you are too lazy to use contraception and flaunt the risks regularly, if you do a stupid and get drunk/high/just have sex without protection for the simple reason someone paid attention to you - if you are solely or mostly responsible for your own impregnation (not saying that it is women's duty to use contraception, men are also to blame for this) - then aborting an innocent child that could have had a much more meaningful existence than you or anyone you know or even just a meaningful existence period, that is unfair. If you don't want a kid, be proactive about it.

Again, if you're unlucky and the condom breaks or your pill is that 0.001% ineffective, it's not your fault. You at least tried. I'm personally okay with abortion on that level. If it happened to me now as a penniless and immature freshman student, I like to think I'd take the pregnancy to full term and put it up for adoption - I know the child will be wanted then.

First and foremost though, I think it is the woman's choice. It is her body, it is her who will have the memories and the emotional scars, the physical changes and the permanent reminders. Abortion - especially multiple ones - can have lasting effects on your reproductive system, surely, and make future, loving and wanted conceptions more difficult (I don't science...), but can also have emotional scars. I know some people who will be haunted forever by theirs and that's heartbreaking.

But overall, it's just my opinion; no one should have the right to tell someone what to do with their own bodies.

@ lozzieee screams.
So you think a child is a punishment that should be forced on someone who didn't use protection? Children are not punishments. Pregnancy is not a punishment. Every child should be a wanted child. Not only is it wrong to force someone to give up their body (as punishment) for nine months; it is sexist. The woman has to be punished but the man gets to keep his body and not go through with a dangerous procedure (one far more dangerous than abortion).

It is possible to be pro life and pro choice. However, decidin when the woman is worthy of abortion isn't pro choice. It's pro YOUR choice.

Even if you ultimately decide she should have the choice, you still clearly seem to "know" when her choice is wrong. It's like those states that want to force women to watch nonfactual videos before getting abortions. "I know you've made your decision and you have that right, but let me tell you why you're wrong."

@ dru is beautiful.
I'm really sorry if I offended you. I admit, my choice of wording was very sloppy - that's not what I meant at all!

What I was trying to say - and butchering it wildly in the process - is that there are some girls who see having an abortion as something as commonplace as wearing a condom. If they end up pregnant, eh they can just go to the doctors and get an abortion. It's that culture of apathy and it's worrying. They need to be informed, educated - everyone does.

And I understand that sometimes contraception is the last thing on someone's mind (male or female). I'm not talking about a one time mistake. I'm talking about men and women who regularly flaunt the risks even though they know what could and more than likely will happen. I know children are not punishments - children are wonderful. And I'm not saying anyone should be forced into a pregnancy - all I'm saying is that I disagree with using abortion as a form of contraception, which (albeit a small minority of) women do.

I wholly agree, all children should be wanted.

Again, I'm really sorry about how I came across in my post.

@ lozzieee screams.
Do you have any statistics on the amount if women you believe use abortion as contraception? I do a lot of research on abortion statistics and have yet to come across any that support that claim.

I am glad to hear that you do support abortion for all women who want it.

@ dru is beautiful.
I'm not sure if it's a widespread phenomenon - I don't think there are many women that actually abuse the procedure, but I know it does happen, at least in pockets, however small (I've stumbled across a few articles about it online from British newspapers, but they're not exactly reliable sources of information, especially the ones the articles are appearing in e.g. the Daily Mail and the Telegraph). Where I used to live it happened sometimes, and I think it stems purely from a lack of education (it's quite a rundown area with a lot of poverty and unfortunately poor education). If women - and men, because they are just as responsible for unwanted pregnancies and sometimes moreso than women - were better educated on their options, there would be less of a need for emergency abortions.

It's incredibly unfair and unlucky when a woman becomes pregnant purely through a failing in her or her partners contraception, and would be just as unfair to expect her to keep a child simply because the state or nation to which she was born or moved won't allow her to abort should she choose to. The same with rape. The fact that I, at least on some level, disagree with abortion, does not give me the right to take that choice away from someone. It's not the place of the state or any extraneous individual to dictate something like that. It is purely the woman's choice and it's up to her to weigh up the risks of an abortion against the risks of birth and her future.

I'm not always graceful in my arguments and I'm glad you saw what I was trying to say in a roundabout way, so thank you.

@ hazuki.
I don't think I said raising a child was a "punishment". That was your beautiful choice of a word. But I can now see why many might choose to abort. The child is seen as something not desired. The act was but the outcome wasn't. My opinion is that if a pregnancy results responsibility should be assumed.

@ CallusedSilk
Thank you so much for pointing that one person out, did you forget to mention all those that might choose to abort due to expected birth defects? I am not referring to individual cases but the consensus as to what should be considered the norm. Normally pregnancy occurs when one has sex. You can try to subvert that through scientific means but sometimes those fail and a life is begun. What now? One science has failed so another takes over? A life wasn't stopped so now remove it! I admit I have a problem with that!

@ amybh33
At the risk of sounding extremely rude, do you even know how to have a proper debate about things? I'm asking that since you ignored about 99% of what I said to you and then randomly brought up birth defects, which had not actually been discussed before in our conversation whatsoever (by the way, I don't really see a reason to judge a woman for choosing that since it's still her body and her choice). You're now suddenly acting as if we were ever talking about individual cases. I wasn't. I merely pointed out an individual case on this forum, since you were bashing. I was trying to remind you that there are people in this thread that went through things and you made general statements about all women that get abortions based solely on your own bias, not on fact.

Subvert through science? Do you even hear yourself? I'm discussing facts. Facts about reality. A reality where I am putting the life, the freedom and the body of a woman over a cluster of cells inside her body. Is abortion sad? Yes. Do I wish it wasn't necessary? Absolutely. Should it be an option? Without a doubt.

You also still refuse to tell me what exactly you hope to happen if abortion was somehow ever made illegal again. So, I'm going to ask again. Would you imprison pregnant womrn? Would you force them to give birth? How would you do that? Would you then recommend an even larger foster care system with an even larger amount of kids falling through the cracks? Would you allow homosexuals to adopt or would you prevent them from adopting? Would they fit into your personal opinion of what the norm in our society should be?