Abortion

@ xandermark.
Man I feel like ripping my eyeballs out right now! I put my opion out there and I gets my head bited off.

When a woman gets pregnent she is no longer think about just her self she needs to do all she can to look after her and her baby. If she didn't want to get pregnent then there is ways around it if you get my drift.

There are always people to help you financiale if you are struggling

Abortion is NEVER an option.

@ Join the Masquerade
Well If it is just a fetus then your not pregnent so no need for abortion, right?
Hahah no go on and say its just a fetus not a baby but your wrong, that fetus is the beging of your babys life. If I wore pregnent and the docter told me the baby would be born dead I would still go on and have the baby because god does everything for a reason. You shouldn't mess with nature.

@ Maleficent A
No one's biting your head off. We're just putting our opinions forth like you did and debating. That's the entire point of this thread/subforum.

@ stillborn.
If this sad lonely dark place we call earth think that killing a unborn baby is fine then it literally makes me sick.

@ Maleficent A

A baby develops. It's not like the second that little sperm gets to the egg that this wonderful child with 10 fingers and toes enters the world and you can hear it's laughter and see it smiling. In my opinion, a baby, born, is different to something that is inside a woman and only alive because of that. Which I believe is up until about 6 or so months. It is my body above anyone else's, including above a God, above a man, above a fetus, and I shall do as I wish with it within good reason. I don't actively try to fall pregnant just to get abortions. Those are the only kinds of situations I might look down upon a woman for having an abortion over.

Maleficent A:

When a woman gets pregnent she is no longer think about just her self she needs to do all she can to look after her and her baby.

I don't believe in this for myself, personally. Maybe that's how you see your body. But my body is my own. I need to care for myself above something that is not conscious. That's like not taking cold and flu medicine because you'd be killing off innocent bacteria. Which is also life.

Maleficent A:

If she didn't want to get pregnent then there is ways around it if you get my drift.

Sometimes there aren't ways around it. What if a women is raped? Tricked into pregnancy? What if her circumstances change? God forbid she's taking every precaution she can and still by some horrible happening falls pregnant, because no form of contraceptive is 100% effective. The only way to remain 100% unlikely to fall pregnant is to not have sex, and as I do not see myself purely as a breeding device, I choose to also have sex for pleasure etc. I think if a woman is purposefully choosing to fall pregnant and then aborting, that's a whole other story. But a woman not actively trying to fall pregnant, and unwilling/unable to have a child? I'd not condemn her for having an abortion for her own health and other personal choices.

Maleficent A:

Abortion is NEVER an option.

Maybe not for you, but for anyone else out there, maybe reading through, that wants/needs/has had an abortion, it is my personal opinion that they are not doing a wrong thing.

Maleficent A:

god does everything for a reason. You shouldn't mess with nature.

I do not have a God/belief system and do not wish to have one applied to me. Thank you.

Maleficent A:

@ xandermark.
Man I feel like ripping my eyeballs out right now! I put my opion out there and I gets my head bited off.

What stillborn. said. I'm not having a go, I'm just responding and discussing with you, that's all. :)

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When a woman gets pregnent she is no longer think about just her self she needs to do all she can to look after her and her baby.

The problem is that not all women are actually in a situation where they can simultaneously look after themselves and a baby.

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If she didn't want to get pregnent then there is ways around it if you get my drift.

There are, but that's not really the point - certain ways to deal with unwanted pregnancy will be better for the woman in question. One woman may not want an abortion but decide to go for adoption - fair enough. Another might feel the exact opposite - also fair enough. It should be a woman's own choice what happens to what's growing inside her and feeding from her nutrients.

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There are always people to help you financiale if you are struggling

I wish that were the case, but for many people it's just not.

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Well If it is just a fetus then your not pregnent so no need for abortion, right?

No, if it's a foetus you're pregnant by definition.

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Hahah no go on and say its just a fetus not a baby but your wrong, that fetus is the beging of your babys life.

Many people have different views of where "life", as it were, actually starts, but such conjecture isn't really helpful. The point is that a foetus (within the period of pregnancy in which it's legal to abort) just cannot be compared in worth to a woman, especially a woman being inhabited by said foetus.

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You shouldn't mess with nature.

I dunno, our entire medical and surgical system (talking the human race as a whole) has pretty much come about through messing with nature.

I understood your points clearly. I simply disagree with them and am offering you a dissenting challenge to your opinions.

Maleficent A:

What I meant by this was its the fathers baby just as much as the mothers he has just as much right to want to keep it as her. And even tho he might not carry the baby its not his fault! That's how nature works. If I was having a baby and didn't want to keep it but the dad did I would much rather have the baby and give it to its dad after it was born no way would I go and kill after knowing it could of been alive with a happy home.

And it would be your choice to make to carry the fetus to term for the male. However, it would also be your choice to decide to not carry the fetus to term. The keyword there is choice. What you do with the fetus is ultimately your choice, not the male's choice. You would be making the conscious decision to carry the fetus to term for the male. It is the same for every woman. It is the woman's body always in question and it is always the woman's choice.

Maleficent A:

A fetus IS a baby, if it isn't then your not pregnent. When you take a pregnecy test it doesn't say FETUS its says PREGNENT there for it is a baby and when you kill that baby it is MURDER and murder is sin. And even if you haven't got enough money to care for a baby always rememeber that god even feeds the birds in the trees.

I truly don't mean any offense by this and I do apologize if this comes off harshly but... I really don't think you quite understand how pregnancy works in a scientific viewpoint. After reading this, it is clear to me that you are looking at pregnancy and abortion only through an emotional and religious viewpoint. This is the definition of fetus in the dictionary:

an unborn offspring of a mammal, in particular an unborn human baby more than eight weeks after conception.

When a woman is pregnant, it is called a fetus because that is the proper term for it. Calling a fetus a 'baby' while it is still unborn is purely emotional and not a factual term for it.

Now with that said and with all due respect... No, a 'god' is not going to provide for a child. If I may ask, have you ever struggled through poverty? Have you ever wondered about when the next time you'll be able to afford food is? Do you know what it is like to worry about losing your house - your only means of shelter? Do you know what it is like to be mocked by your peers because you can barely afford even the basics of living? I have lived that. I have lived through poverty practically my entire life. I know how much it hurts and I would never willingly subject a child to that. I would rather take an abortion when I am financially unstable and wait until I am financially stable to have a child than subject my child to poverty.

Maleficent A:

And its not even right then after all it isn't the babys fault. And if they was a chance I may not survive during pregnecy that a chance I would be willing to take, what sort of mother are you if you didn't?

Wow. That's really all that's coming to my mind right now. It's fine if you want to give up your life for a pregnancy but you have no right to force another woman to give up her life for a pregnancy. I am not like you. I would not give up my life for a pregnancy. I would put my health first. If that makes me selfish than fine, I am completely fine with being selfish. I never used to put my health forward and I ended up in a bad spot. I've learned to put my health forward first. If a pregnancy would damage by mental health or endanger my life then yes, I would terminate the pregnancy for the better of my health.

That does not make me a bad mother or a bad potential mother. It makes me a responsible adult who is taking charge of her health.

Maleficent A:

Man I feel like ripping my eyeballs out right now! I put my opion out there and I gets my head bited off.

No one is biting your head off. These portions of Mibba are to debate and discussion. Any user is free to say their opinion in a respectful manner just as any user is free to challenge that opinion in a respectful manner. You're free to not respond to any messages you don't wish to.

I'm sorry if anything I said sounded like it was attacking you in anyway. I truly am not meaning to.

Maleficent A:

When a woman gets pregnent she is no longer think about just her self she needs to do all she can to look after her and her baby. If she didn't want to get pregnent then there is ways around it if you get my drift.

There are always people to help you financiale if you are struggling

For the first part of what you said, I want to refer back to the end of my first post. Most women do use some sort of contraceptive. The idea that most abortions are performed on women who don't is nothing more than propaganda that you shouldn't believe.

As for the second part... Perhaps that is true for your country. I honestly don't know what it is like over in the UK. However, here in the U.S, that is a completely different story. The U.S government is waging a war on the poor and trying to take away our resources for getting help. Our benefits are getting cut and taken away from us. The GOP is doing what it can to slash help for the poorer citizens of this country. Help is increasingly becoming harder to get. It is no longer readily available to receive in the U.S. I'm do live in a State where the government does still care about its poorer citizens but most Americans do not.

Things just aren't that simple.

@ Maleficent A
Avoid making judgment calls. And, I'm going to ask you what I've asked every single pro-life person I've met so far. No one's been able to answer me so far, but maybe you're different. Just maybe. Let's give it a shot.

What's the endgame here? Let's say, for the sake of argument, that abortion becomes 100%, no exceptions at all, illegal. What then? How do you keep women from terminating a pregnancy on their own? Do we lock them up? What amount of force are you willing to use on another human being to make sure that they go through with the pregnancy no matter what? Once the pregnancy is done, what do you then do with the children? The foster care system is already overcrowded and thousands of children age out of the system. If you make it to age 10 without being adopted, your chances of being adopted are pretty much zero. People like babies, and they want the baby to look like them and to have no medical conditions. Adoption is also costly, very costly, and while I saw that you do support same-sex couples adopting, which is great, they aren't actually allowed to adopt in a lot of areas. I'm asking you what exactly you want to happen, because anyone can just say 'abortion is wrong'.

People that are pro-choice don't love abortion. People aren't getting abortions for fun. I don't like abortion, but I see it as a necessary thing in our society. It'd be awesome to live in a world where abortion is never ever necessary and everyone that ever gets pregnant is physically, financially, emotionally and mentally ready to have a kid, but that's just not how the world works. It's not. You know what makes me sick? People telling me that God does everything for a reason and not realizing that it glosses over atrocities in life as if it was somehow helpful or beneficial to the person. Do you know how young the youngest mother in the world was? Do you? The youngest mother in the world was 5 years and 7 months old. Seriously, here's a list here on the youngest birth mothers.

Oh and did you know that some mammals can actually force, through their own hormones, an abortion? Armadillos can. Hippos can. Rabbits can. Horses do it. Technically those things don't necessarily point to it being a good thing, but you were the one that specifically mentioned not going against nature, so I thought it was worth sharing.

@ CallusedSilk
Ok so yes I admit you do have a phew good points there but here's my opionions

Let's say for example abortion became illigel and what would be the outcome of poeple who's didn't want kids

There's always adoption and yes I know they are plenty of kids in there but I would much prefer a child to be alive with no mum and dad then to not be alive at all. But I think if we do make adoption illegel there should be places avalable for woman to go to for help and advice on raising on raising a baby. But there is always the concern of people ignoring the law and getting rid of the baby illigely if this wore to happen and the police found out I think they should go to prison or at least pray for forgivness. I'm not saying they should get life in prison but just a short amount of time just so they know it is wrong.

@ Airi.
Ok.

Yes I have dealt with povety. For the first 11 years of my life me and my family were on the streets and struggling to live when we finnaly did have a place of our own my mom died of a stroke and my dad turned abusive so I ended up in care. But thru out all that I can honestly say I never went hungry and I always had clean clothes and for me that was enough.

I didn't have the best life in care but It was ok and I would be fine with letting any one of my future kids go there if I couldn't care for them. No matter how bad of a life you got you can always make time for the love of a child. Ending a life isn't the only option you have.

@ Maleficent A
You'd really put a woman in prison for a few years for getting an abortion? You'd really put a potentially desperate and poor woman in prison, punishing her again simply for having an abortion? Just wow. Wow. It's calloused of you, but you are at least consistent.

Next question though is what if their religion doesn't see it as an issue? Does your religion supersede theirs? Why?

@ CallusedSilk
My religion is christianity and is says murder is sin so that's me beliefs as for other religions I'm not sure being as I don't really know much about them but I say the same rules should apply to everyone no matter what their religion.

Maleficent A:

Yes I have dealt with povety. For the first 11 years of my life me and my family were on the streets and struggling to live when we finnaly did have a place of our own my mom died of a stroke and my dad turned abusive so I ended up in care. But thru out all that I can honestly say I never went hungry and I always had clean clothes and for me that was enough.

Then you are one of the luckier ones in a minority. More often than not, children struggling through poverty do not have access to things like food or clean clothes. Their parents are unable to provide for them despite how desperately hard their parents are trying. The meals they get at school are often the only meals they will eat and their families are forced to live in dangerous neighborhoods because "good" neighborhoods are only for the rich or middle class apparently. The was my reality. It may be different in the UK but in the U.S, that is the reality for a majority of children living in poverty or homelessness in the U.S.

Maleficent A:

I didn't have the best life in care but It was ok and I would be fine with letting any one of my future kids go there if I couldn't care for them.

It's great that you received proper care while being in the system. Perhaps this is common in the UK. Like I've said, I don't know how your systems work over there. However, as I've stated before, what happens in your country does not happen in every country. Here in the U.S, our adoption and foster systems are not good. They are overcrowded and underfunded. Many couples only want healthy babies and at that, they only want Caucasian babies. Babies of other races, babies with health problems, and older children are often not adopted or properly cared for. Even if they are adopted, the 'family' might not be as good as you may think.

The adoption system is not a miracle option. It is not always good. Your experience should be what everyone gets. Proper care and basics for living. But far too often, children in the system and children living in poverty do not get that.

Maleficent A:

No matter how bad of a life you got you can always make time for the love of a child. Ending a life isn't the only option you have.

Should I ever get pregnant, I know that I would love the fetus/child... And that's exactly why I would choose to have an abortion. Right now, I'm not fit to be a mother. Allowing myself to have a child in my current state would be irresponsible and negligent of me.

Abortion is not the only option. I never once claimed it was. However, it should always be an option. Birth, adoption, and abortion should always be options.

Sometimes abortion is the best option.

Maleficent A:

But there is always the concern of people ignoring the law and getting rid of the baby illigely if this wore to happen and the police found out I think they should go to prison or at least pray for forgivness. I'm not saying they should get life in prison but just a short amount of time just so they know it is wrong.

I'm going to ignore how wrong it is for someone to want to throw a woman in jail for having an abortion and skip to this... Do you really think mercilessly throwing a woman in jail for abortion would stop illegal abortions? Let's take ourselves back to the time when abortion was illegal in the United States. Do you know the rate at which women were dying in backalley abortions? If not, I suggest you look it up and educate yourself on it. It might shine some light on why your opinion is so dangerous to women. Jail will not stop desperate women from ending pregnancies they don't want. Placing women in jail for an abortion is just saying that women don't matter at all.

@ Maleficent A
The bible does identify some killings as immoral. Although, not all of them. So still it's not a good point to use your interpretation of the bible as justification for changing the law.

@ CallusedSilk
To me I think all murders are the same once you get pregnant you are carrying a life and its your decision what to do with that life do you know some people even gets abortions just because their baby might be down syndrome, its sick!

I'm only talking for the lives who can't.

@ Maleficent A
What is your stance on underage abortions (in Australia it's legal to give consent to sex at 16+)? If a 16 / 17 year old was pregnant would you think it is their responsibility to carry the pregnancy to term?

Also, what about in the case of older women whose chance of getting incredibly sick / dying increases by carrying a pregnancy to term?

Just to carry along that train of thought, if a woman was terminally ill and she was pregnant would you see an abortion as a viable option?

I don't see abortion as murder, as the fetus (which it isn't classified as one until eight weeks after contraception as provided by the definition above) is simply a bundle of cells, with no sentience or feelings, etc.

Some people aren't cut out to be mothers, and others may not want to go through the process of pregnancy. (I know that I, for one, don't. The process sickens me to my stomach and I can't see myself having children.) Also along the vein of not wanting to be a mother, even if a woman carried the pregnancy to term and then gave the baby to an adoption centre, she may suffer from post-natal depression. Is a baby being born really more important to you than the mental health and wellbeing of a woman?

@ sheepcat;
I for I am like you to, believe it or not but I hate children and I don't see me having any in the future if I do 1 child should be enough but if I did get pregnent I would not have an aborion and kill my own child just because I don't like children at the end of the day it is part of me so I have to take full responsiblity for that child.

If I was a young girl age around 16/17 and I did happen to get pregnent them odviosly I would keep the baby or if I couldn't take care of it I would put it up for adoption. But I know that not everybody is like me and most girls that age would have an abortion but if theyt didn't want to get pregnent at that age. Would it be so hard for a teenafer to keep her legs closed. But if in the case of rape then like I said abortion should be done them being as the mother is in no mental state to care for the baby of her rapist.

If I were an older woman and I got pregnent then that would be my fault and my problem so I would have to deal with it no matter what the consoqunses.

I know a girl and she is only 15 years old with a baby the dads not around but she still does all she can to love and care for the baby she's really an insperation to us all I asked her a phew weeks ago why didn't she have an abortion and her anser was I would rather end my own life then my babys and I think everyone should think like that. If a 15 year old can take care of a baby then there's no exuse I grown woman can't.

@ Maleficent A
My point was actually that while you may have an impressively black and white stance on killing, the bible does not. In fact, there are frequent times in the bible when God commands the death of pregnant women and of women for various 'crimes'.

Even modern law does not have a black and white stance of just 'you caused a death and therefore you get punished'.

@ Maleficent A
I'm honestly shocked at what you said at teen pregnancy. I went through a situation a few weeks ago where a friend of mine was facing a pregnancy if her contraception didn't work. She was thinking about all aspects of her life; her education, what her parents would think, how difficult it would be to raise a child at her age, etc. Her mental and emotional maturity surrounding being pregnant and then having the child was no where near an acceptable level for her to actually consider having a child. I believe I would be the same. If we were to speak morally, then I believe it would be morally right for her to have an abortion, as her mental state is in no place to have a child.

I'm sensing a bit of contradiction in your last paragraph; how can a fifteen year old be an inspiration when, in order to have the baby, she needed to have sex first? Why shouldn't she have "kept her legs shut"?

I will sound biased but this is from my personal point of view. I am pro choice but I currently am pregnant and keeping my child. However, unless you've never been pregnant you don't have a full right to judge. Pregnancy is EXHAUSTING. Physically, emotionally, and mentally. If you know you're not ready, forcing yourself to go through the changes is a lot tougher. Not every woman is lucky enough to have support. What if a woman is constantly sick (like I am) and misses too much work she gets fired? Not every woman is able to be in a good place, it's just how it is.

Not everyone has the will power to put their bodies through the exhaustion that comes with pregnancy. I am very lucky enough to have a lot of support from our families, but so many girls do not have help. Forcing a woman to go through these strenuous changes will not solve Her qualms. Just as everything has precautions so does pregnancy. I mean a woman won't even have a choice to abort if it's an ectopic pregnancy which would potentially harm the mother if not treated fast enough.

I just think a woman has a right to live her life, without being forced to carry a child unwillingly. Yes there's adoption too, but again it all stems down to the mothers health. Why is her health disregarded??

Again I apologize if I'm sounding biased here, im just sticking up for the fact that pregnancy is not always magical, it's hard.