Abortion

  • cold.little.crime

    cold.little.crime (100)

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    @ Mr. Darcy
    But that something you're talking about is another human. You aren't going to die from incubating another human for 9 months. No major harm will come to you, what it boils down for is would you endure 9 months of being uncomfortable to save another human. If you saw a woman on the street, you've never met before, and you're put in the situation of " you're going to bee really uncomfortable for 9 months, you'll be in agony for 1 day, you may have a few issues to work out that could take a couple of years, but at the end you will be okay. But if you don't want to then this woman is going to be killed" what would you say? It to me is a matter of morals. I would never want to be the cause of any harm. And you may say that that woman has a life and memories and family that would miss her, but so would the baby if you gave it a chance.
    January 27th, 2016 at 11:41pm
  • Mr. Darcy

    Mr. Darcy (16090)

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    @ cold.little.crime
    But I'm not. A foetus is not another human. A baby, one that has been born and breathed at least once, is a human being. A foetus that leeches off the mother is not. You can die. Complications can arise during pregnancy and not every woman's body can carry a foetus full term without seriously harming the woman. If I had to either be pregnant or the woman I didn't know was going to die? Honestly, I think I would let the woman die. I'm not going to become an incubator to save someone else's life. That might be selfish but honestly, it'd be selfish of me to have a child because I'm severely depressed and sometimes unable to care for myself. Why on earth would I bring a child into my life in that situation?

    "But so would the baby if you gave it a chance."

    That chance comes at the expense of a woman who is already living and breathing on her own. That foetus has nothing unless the woman wants to give up her body for it. It's as clear as that. Without the woman, the foetus is nothing.
    January 27th, 2016 at 11:56pm
  • cold.little.crime

    cold.little.crime (100)

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    I definately have to disagree with you. I've already mentioned in a bother case that in exstenuating circumstances like the mother becoming suicidal over pregnancy, I can't comment. But I personally don't understand how someone couldn't make that sacrifice to save a child. I've lived in the situation of an unwanted pregnancy, I've lost thousands of pounds and my place at university to have her because I feel that I had a responsibility to the life I created, weather it was by accident or not. And a foetus is alway a human. It's not like you're carrying an alien. Also to say a child leeches off you're body is hugely ill informed it's not a parasite, it dosent leech off you. Obviously this is all just opinion, as is you view and we both have vastly differing view points.
    January 28th, 2016 at 03:21am
  • wxyz

    wxyz (240)

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    cold.little.crime:
    I've lived in the situation of an unwanted pregnancy, I've lost thousands of pounds and my place at university to have her because I feel that I had a responsibility to the life I created, weather it was by accident or not.
    And it seems as though it was the right decision for you, but for other women it may not be. Your children are lucky that you were able to cope with the pregnancies and begin to raise them successfully, but not all mothers and their babies would have the same fortune. I dare say a large amount of the women who abort are considering the fact that it's far crueller to bring a child into the world to which she couldn't give a good upbringing than to terminate it before it had the capacity to think or feel.
    cold.little.crime:
    Also to say a child leeches off you're body is hugely ill informed it's not a parasite, it dosent leech off you.
    It absorbs nutrients from the mother through the placenta, so really, that's exactly what it does. I do agree that foetuses are human - to consider them otherwise, I think, is neither accurate nor helpful, but I also don't think it matters when it comes to whether or not abortion is a good decision. To me, the life of a woman (or girl, as the case may be) is more important than a potential one.
    January 28th, 2016 at 06:21am
  • Mr. Darcy

    Mr. Darcy (16090)

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    @ cold.little.crime
    Maybe because they don't want to make that sacrifice? Becoming a mother doesn't automatically ensure that you will love your child and that your child will love you back - that is never a certain guarantee. It happens with most, I agree with that, but some mothers never love their children and some children resent their mothers from birth. Not everyone will have the experience you had - not everyone is willing to sacrifice their education for a child. I know I wouldn't. I start university in September and if I fell pregnant I'd abort it. To me, there's no responsibility to a foetus unless you actively choose to assume one. Just because one begins to grow in a woman doesn't make her automatically responsible to see it through to birth. A foetus is a lump of cells that suck the nutrients out of the mother's body. It is a parasite in that they have the same function and cannot survive when removed from its host. If the foetus is not a leech on a woman then if we remove it from a woman's womb at conception it will be able to grow all by itself? No, it wouldn't.
    January 28th, 2016 at 06:38am
  • cold.little.crime

    cold.little.crime (100)

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    @ Mr. Darcy
    The legal abortion age in the uk is 25 weeks. My daughter was 2 months early and shared the NICU with babies born and 21 week, they both survived. So yes in some cases they can and will survive. Also if an aborted baby is alive when passed its left to die. The slave trade was legal at one point. I wonder when the abortion limit is even going to be lowered because that to me is just barbaric.
    And also if you are responsible enough of you're own body to make that life inside of you, I feel like you as responsible enough to not just sweep it under the rug. It's not like someone's burdened you with it, you've procreated, you and the man are responsible for that. And as I've mentioned I can comment on abortion in extenuating circumstances.
    January 28th, 2016 at 10:11am
  • cold.little.crime

    cold.little.crime (100)

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    @ svefn-gengar
    So let me ask you this, woud you call the baby of a planned pregnancy a foetus or a clump of cells to her face? Or is it just unwanted babies that you dehumanise?
    January 28th, 2016 at 10:14am
  • wxyz

    wxyz (240)

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    cold.little.crime:
    It's not like someone's burdened you with it, you've procreated, you and the man are responsible for that. And as I've mentioned I can comment on abortion in extenuating circumstances.
    Do you consider failed birth control an extenuating circumstance or do you consider it tantamount to purposeful procreation?
    cold.little.crime:
    @ svefn-gengar
    So let me ask you this, woud you call the baby of a planned pregnancy a foetus or a clump of cells to her face? Or is it just unwanted babies that you dehumanise?
    Sorry, when did I dehumanise any baby? I said that I think foetuses are human, only that that's irrelevant to whether or not abortion may be the right decision for a particular woman.
    January 29th, 2016 at 01:26am
  • Mr. Darcy

    Mr. Darcy (16090)

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    @ cold.little.crime
    Actually, it's up to 24 weeks. And most abortions are carried out before they reach 13 weeks. Abortions and slavery are entirely incompatible so I don't understand why that was brought up. And you're saying that if you're having sex then you're responsible enough to raise a child? Because that's not how it works. Having sex is you and another consenting body engaging in a brief act that they both walk away from. Having a baby is for life. Being pregnant is for 9 months. I am struggling to see how they can be fairly compared.

    Regardless, abortions have happened long before they became legal. If the legal limit was reduced significantly - or ever made illegal again (god forbid) - that won't stop the abortions. Women will just obtain them illegally and in unhygienic ways. Most value their own lives and free will than that of a foetus.
    January 29th, 2016 at 03:59am
  • Join the Masquerade

    Join the Masquerade (100)

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    So I saw this on a NaNoWriMo Facebook group of all places today and liked the argument given - I haven't seen it presented in that way before.

    Kinda horrible that we have more rights as women over out bodies when we're dead.
    January 29th, 2016 at 06:59am
  • Mr. Darcy

    Mr. Darcy (16090)

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    @ Join the Masquerade
    I see that all the time. It's so true, though. It's as if having a womb, therefore a place that a potential foetus can develop, means that we cannot say 'no' to having one if one ends up forming there. Crazy to think that we're actually people and not just incubator, right?
    January 29th, 2016 at 07:06am
  • Join the Masquerade

    Join the Masquerade (100)

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    @ Mr. Darcy
    What? You mean we have our own feelings and thoughts too? Crazy.
    The idea that there are people who believe I have less rights as a grown human being than a foetus does blows my mind.
    January 29th, 2016 at 08:16am
  • lonely girl.

    lonely girl. (250)

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    @ cold.little.crime
    Just on your point of responsibility: what if a woman falls pregnant by failure of a reliable contraception? She was actively trying to prevent a pregnancy; would you deem her "allowed" to abort it because she didn't want it in the first place?
    January 29th, 2016 at 10:32am
  • FuckNo

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    @ cold.little.crime
    I'm glad things ended up working out for you and I'm glad the pregnancies ended up going well for you. However, I'd like to point out something to you that you seem to have overlooked.

    You looked through all the options and then decided what to do with your body and with your pregnancy. The fact that you went through with the pregnancy and don't regret it is admirable, but that doesn't change the fact that every single pregnant person on this planet deserves a chance to look at all their options and choose, for whatever reason, what works best for them.

    Even if they go the adoption route, it's naive, in my opinion, to think that the pregnancy itself doesn't change a person's life if they're forced to go through the entire thing. There's going to be at least part of a time when they just flat out can't work and maybe they don't get maternity leave with their company because they're not a full time employee or whatever. Their health drastically changes, their insurance goes up, they become less likely to get hired if they are a temp/less likely for promotion if they already are an employee. Hell, I've even heard of some women just flat out getting fired soon after a pregnancy happens. Beyond that there's also doctor bills and hospital bills, which aren't always paid for when you go the adoption route and those bills are expensive.

    On top of that, there are actually a ton of kids in the foster system in the US waiting to be adopted. Thousands of children age out of the system without ever being adopted whatsoever. The idea that we must put more kids into the foster system because there are parents out there that want to adopt kids doesn't actually match up with what's going on in reality.

    For me, I will always care more about the pregnant individual than I will for the life growing inside them. That's a living human being with dreams, goals, health problems and a life that deserves your respect. That person also deserves to have a choice about what happens to their body and that means having a say in whether or not they go through with a pregnancy and that's for any reason, and I'm including all of them. Those reasons include, but are not limited to: rape, incest, health issues in the mother, health issues in the fetus, financial woes and just flat out not wanting to go through with it just because.

    Your view on birth always being a joy is your personal view. Not everyone views it that way. For some women it's an awful experience and that's still a valid point of view. If a woman is making the choice to terminate the pregnancy, for whatever reason, I beg of you to not refer to it as them killing their child. I implore you to understand that if someone is making that sort of decision that it's not lightly and they may not even view what they're doing as the 'killing of a child'. I personally don't, so to say that to them and to frame it like that can come across as hurtful and insensitive.

    TL;DR: You can do whatever you want with your life and your body, just try to recognize that every single person on the planet should have that same right too.
    February 6th, 2016 at 04:15am
  • cold.little.crime

    cold.little.crime (100)

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    @ CallusedSilk
    I would never say this to a woman who was in the process or going to have an abortion. just this is a forum specifically for the debate of abortion. Something i think is wrong. I understand we all have view points and i understand non of us are going to agree. I understand their are gray areas and i know more than most that pregnancy and birth isn't always a joyful experience. But to me abortion is killing a child. That's exactly what it is to me. Weather they were to adopt the child or keep it, that's potential life being aborted. The earliest possible time you can find out you're pregnant is 6 weeks. By 8 weeks the baby has fingers, eyes and ears. Its organs are developing. In England the legal abortion limit is 24 weeks. My second daughter was raised in the NICU for the fist part of her life, let me assure you, babies born at 24 weeks can and will survive. She was in their with twins born at 24 weeks and at one point before she was discharged a little girl born at 21 weeks. Babies born alive in Europe after an abortion attempt are left to die. If the still don't they are literally killed. That to me violates human right laws. I understand abortion will be wildly accepted by society and no i don't agree with it but i feel at most the age of abortion should be dramatically lowered.

    I really do respect your opinion and i'm a very tolerant person. I'm not one of these people who would picket abortion clinics or anything but this is just one subject i personally can not be tolerant of.
    February 6th, 2016 at 11:21pm
  • FuckNo

    FuckNo (100)

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    @ cold.little.crime
    It's all well and good to state that you find out that you're pregnant when they're 6 weeks, and even to mention the limit of 24 weeks, but here's the fact that means that a limit that long doesn't matter.

    Over 90% of abortions happen before 12 weeks. At that point the fetus is around the size of a turnip.

    On top of that, your experience in Great Britain is going to be vastly different than the people whose experiences are mostly happening in America (although probably not enough to change the fact that most abortions are before 12 weeks), and that needs to be addressed. In Great Britain/UK, there is a much wider availability for medical services in general.

    In America, abortion rights are being eroded. In many states, there's literally only one abortion clinic that a woman can go to maybe in her entire state. And when she gets to those abortion places, they might not be a Planned Parenthood one (which does way more than abortions, but is still the best place to go for one), and not only might the non-PP place force the woman to stare at an ultrasound, not only may the place shame her her potential decision (sometimes even before finding out if she's even looking for an abortion), but they then tell her that she can't get one for another 24 hours.

    That woman might have had to road trip just to get there and now she has to pay for a hotel room just to go through with an already trying decision. She then has to spend probably a minimum of 500 dollars for the abortion because even though it's a medical service, none of it is covered by insurance. None of it.

    It is not killing a child. It is giving a woman a choice and control over her life. It is trusting a woman with the autonomy to make the decision that is best for her existence. You don't have to like abortion. You don't have to ever want an abortion, but you I deeply implore you to realize that for many women, it is the best choice for them to make.

    I've pointed this out before, but I'll point it out to you now. I've had trouble with suicidal tendencies in the past. I've attempted suicide three times in my life and that is enough for good, cautious doctors to refuse to prescribe me quite a few medications because it might exacerbate my condition and lead to me killing myself. Pregnancy can do that same thing, and if I kill myself while pregnant because I can't get an abortion, then that fetus isn't going to live.

    Also, just another comment: you say you'd never say these things to a woman going through this, but what you're actually demonstrating is that you won't say this to a woman who comes out and says she's going through with it. Most women don't tell other people that they have done this or that they are doing this because of public stigma, especially comments from people going, 'it's killing a child', because what that person hears, whether you mean for them to hear it or not, is 'you're a murderer'.

    And then we get into the issue of what exactly you want done about abortion. Do you want it eliminated entirely? If so, how do you think we should enforce it? Would you allow for any exceptions? Do you think we should put already desperate women in prison for attempting or succeeding with an abortion? Do you want women to be forced to go through with a pregnancy? If so, how would that happen?

    What would happen with all the now born children that are in the world? I'm asking that since, in America at least (I don't know Britain's situation), thousands of children age out of the system never having been adopted whatsoever. Children that are never adopted and end up going through the foster system in America have a higher chance of, although it's nowhere near a guarantee, of getting in trouble with the law or having a pregnancy of their own.

    I mean no disrespect with my questions and honestly, if life were simple, then your stance would just simply be an honorable and good stance. You want to protect life and I get that, but I can't in good conscience agree with you when I know that we're not just talking about the life of the unborn that's at stake. We're also talking about the mother and pro-life people, in my experience (although I don't know how you feel about it), tend to view the woman as almost unimportant in the situation. At the bare minimum, that is how women who are struggling with the decision to keep or abort a pregnancy end up feeling, that the people that are pro-life don't care about their lives at all. Maybe they're wrong, but it is a very real feeling.
    February 7th, 2016 at 06:15pm
  • Blue_Diamond

    Blue_Diamond (100)

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    February 8th, 2016 at 12:01am
  • cold.little.crime

    cold.little.crime (100)

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    @ CallusedSilk
    Read my earlier comments for the answers to most the questions you asked there as ive already answered them. Although to answer one you asked which i havn't answered, I just don't talk about the topic of abortion at all because its just not a great conversation topic is it? where as i'm happy to discuss my opinion (thats all it is) on a forum, specifically allocated for the discussion of abortion.

    We were forced to watch an anti abortion presentation in my last year of school (16 years old) where in at least 4 of the girls in my year had already had an abortion. I'm not the type of person to ram my opinion down anyone's throat, and I hate the type of anti-choice people who do that. I don't mind speaking my mind on here because that's what this board is for, but i keep my opinions to my self here in the real world.
    February 8th, 2016 at 12:50am
  • FuckNo

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    @ cold.little.crime
    I've seen some of your previous comments and you also seem to be under the impression that people don't/can't die from pregnancy and that they just become uncomfortable for 9 months. I could just be misunderstanding you, but that's the way it's being interpreted. Science doesn't really support that view.

    Also, maybe I'm just not looking back far enough, but I can't find any of your comments talking about what you think should actually be done about abortion. You're coming across as just stating that pregnancy is just something that's uncomfortable, but should just be done with, and that no matter what you should give birth.

    @ The_Snow_Queen
    Contraceptives don't always work, and I'm also very confused by your last line. What exactly do you mean by 'The idea of being pregnant without giving myself any permission or confirming I creeps me out so much.'?
    February 8th, 2016 at 05:58am
  • cold.little.crime

    cold.little.crime (100)

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    @ CallusedSilk
    My personal views on abortion are that the limit should be lowered to 12 week or 16 as I have taken into consideration America which dosent have an NHS and has waiting limits. I feel that women should have to look at a scan so they can see what they are ending. Women should be warned about the PTSD and other mental health problems that can come with abortions and should know about financial aid they are entitled too until they can figure out how to get back to normality. I feel that more funding should go into sexual education in schools ESPECIALLY catholic school and no girl should ever be forced to watch anti abortion videos they should be allowed to make up their own minds after having all the information on the matter. I personally am against them. I never would have one and don't agree with them but I obviously understand not every single person is going to have the same opinion as me.

    I feel that funding should be put into finding foster children homes, not just babies. In the UK they have started having meet and greet days which are basically like fun dad where perspective parents come to meet foster children to adopt. Great idea lets see more of that.

    I think any abortion after the gestation of 21 weeks is barbaric, the baby can and will survive outside the mother at this point and at this point I really can't understand an abortion. It no longer looks like a clump of cells, it's a baby this size of a grapefruit, it's hearts been beating for 14 weeks.

    I hope this clears things up for you on how I feel about the subject.
    February 9th, 2016 at 11:46pm