Abortion

The Strokes:

Bloodraine:

I would let him tell me, because I grant him the unequivocal freedom of speech that I grant all human beings, but I would certainly not listen to him.

Although perhaps you could clarify what you're saying, because I really don't understand the point that you're making.

You understood correctly, I believe.

You wouldn't let a man order you to have his child, or get an abortion, yes?

The point I'm trying to make is that once a couple is pregnant, all of the decisions are left to the woman. This is right, I suppose, because it is her body, she shouldn't be forced either way. However- the man should not bear half the responsibility because he has no authority in the matter.

But assuming we're talking about a married/established couple, who take a lot of decisions together, who share a bank account and a house and everything else, it's slightly different. Then, I guess if the couple were to have a child, then it's a decision they'd take quite equally. With the woman, of course, having the final say. But in that situation, if I had a husband, and he really wanted a child - I would definitely be prepared to take that into account, even if having children was not my priority.

I think if you've got a serious relationship then there are two people in it. And although the woman clearly has the final say, I don't think the man has no authority. Of course, a woman is going to care what her husband thinks. I think most people have to listen to their partner, if they want their relationship to work. Family planning decisions aren't just going to be made by her. They'll be made by both people.

Bloodraine:

But assuming we're talking about a married/established couple, who take a lot of decisions together, who share a bank account and a house and everything else, it's slightly different. Then, I guess if the couple were to have a child, then it's a decision they'd take quite equally. With the woman, of course, having the final say. But in that situation, if I had a husband, and he really wanted a child - I would definitely be prepared to take that into account, even if having children was not my priority.

I think if you've got a serious relationship then there are two people in it. And although the woman clearly has the final say, I don't think the man has no authority. Of course, a woman is going to care what her husband thinks. I think most people have to listen to their partner, if they want their relationship to work. Family planning decisions aren't just going to be made by her. They'll be made by both people.

That is a different situation.

When you decide to have a child together, or accidentally become pregnant in a married situation, and decide to keep the child, then the choice is more jointly made, and the responsibility for raising the child is equal, because the decision made was equal. And if that couple were to divorce, then that responsibility would still need to be equal, because the decision to have a child was made long before.

I'm speaking of a situation in a more casual relationship, where the father doesn't have a say in the matter, truly, because it's a casual relationship, but it is still his fetus being aborted, or he still has to pay child support. I don't believe it's right.

The Strokes:

I'm speaking of a situation in a more casual relationship, where the father doesn't have a say in the matter, truly, because it's a casual relationship, but it is still his fetus being aborted, or he still has to pay child support. I don't believe it's right.

I'm new to this thread but I just wanted to say one thing. Most of the time there's a good reason for the father not getting a say. Most of the time he doesn't want a child and if the baby was carried full term the father wouldn't want any input in the childs life or want anything to do with it. The mother would be the one who would have to look after it.
I'm not saying that this happens in all relationships but it's more common than not. I'm also not saying that I think abortion is right or wrong but it's just my opinion

Dibs:

I'm new to this thread but I just wanted to say one thing. Most of the time there's a good reason for the father not getting a say. Most of the time he doesn't want a child and if the baby was carried full term the father wouldn't want any input in the childs life or want anything to do with it. The mother would be the one who would have to look after it.
I'm not saying that this happens in all relationships but it's more common than not. I'm also not saying that I think abortion is right or wrong but it's just my opinion

Quite understandable.

Then why does he have to pay child support for something he had no decision in?

He has to because like it or not the child is his.He made the decision when he decided not to give a damn. He's as much to blame for it being there but the mother can't help it if he doesn't care whether she aborts it or not.
Child support is different. A child isn't the cheapest to dress and feed so therefore child support is necessary.

I believe what The Strokes is arguing is that men ought to have the right to legal male abortion.

If that's what The Strokes is arguing with then i kind of agree with them but I just said that the point isn't true for all cases. Like in casual relationships. I think that a guy shouldn't have a say in abortion if he doesn't want have anything to do with the kid but if it's in a long term relationship then he should.

^That is what I am arguing.

Women have the right to abort, in the physical sense, why not men in the legal sense?

Yes, he is as much at fault for causing a pregnancy, but he has no say in the matter of whether or not that child is kept, given up for adoption or aborted, so why is he forced to take half the responsibility?

^ I understand what you are arguing but I'm just saying that as with everything there are exceptions. Abortion is a tricky subject to argue about because everyone is so storng in their opinions. They just end up going around in circles.
We don't really have this problem in Ireland because abortion is illegal and if someone wants to abort their baby they have to go to England

I fucking love you, Dibs.

I hope you can do win this so-called friendly debate. You had a valid point.

varkatzas.:

I fucking love you, Dibs.

I hope you can do win this so-called friendly debate. You had a valid point.

Awh Thanks :hug:

Dibs: I think we might be agreeing.

Yes, in a long term relationship, the decision should be made together, and in a casual relationship, it should be up to the mother mostly, because, as you said, if it's a casual relationship, there's a good chance the father doesn't want anything to do with the child.

I'm trying to point out the inequality of saddling the father with child support for the next eighteen years for a child he wants nothing to do with.

We might be agreeing but still it's not just the father who has to pay. The mother does more than her fair share too. Plus if it was the other way aroung the mother would be expected to pay if she wanted nothing to do with her child.
Child support isn't that much in comparison to the cost of raising a child from birth

Dibs:

We might be agreeing but still it's not just the father who has to pay. The mother does more than her fair share too. Plus if it was the other way aroung the mother would be expected to pay if she wanted nothing to do with her child.
Child support isn't that much in comparison to the cost of raising a child from birth

True. But the mother chose to keep the kid. The father has no say in the matter. Why does he have half the responsibility?

Still his kid though. He can't force the mother to have an abortion just because he doesn't want anything to do with it. He still must take resposibilities for his actions regardless of whether he wants it or not.

But she has a choice.

She can abort the pregnancy.

If she chooses to keep the child, regardless of the man wanting nothing to do with it, how is it right that he has to pay for it?
He has no authority over the decision, but he still has to pay for her choice?

She has the right to remove the need for taking responsibility for the next eighteen years, but he cannot do a thing. The decision is completely hers.

Why should he have to pay for a child he doesn't want whatsoever?

We are really just going around in circles.
If the father had any heart at all he'd pay child support regardless of whether he wanted the kid or not. Personally I'd hate to have someone like that for a father but you cant choose your family.

The Strokes:

If you want to have the child, and your boyfriend doesn't, are you really going to let them tell you to get an abortion?

That's the reason 14.1% of women in the U.S. site for getting an abortion.

Dibs:

We are really just going around in circles.
If the father had any heart at all he'd pay child support regardless of whether he wanted the kid or not. Personally I'd hate to have someone like that for a father but you cant choose your family.

Why though? If your mother didn't want you, you'd never know, because you wouldn't exist.
If the mother had any heart at all she would have an abortion.

druscilla's morning.:

The Strokes:

If you want to have the child, and your boyfriend doesn't, are you really going to let them tell you to get an abortion?

That's the reason 14.1% of women in the U.S. site for getting an abortion.

That is frightening, and sad.

The Strokes:

If the mother had any heart at all she would have an abortion.

I don't understand this at all.
I really need you to clarify because it sounds like 'if a pregnant woman had any heart she would abort', but I know that's not what you mean.