Religion and Homosexuality

@ pearlhunter
Jesus never condemned homosexuality.

I should probably chill a little for now with watching Our American with Lisa Ling because sometimes I get angry at what I see but I can't do anything about it.

I just learned about this Exedous international thing about gay people finding god and it will make them straight I think that's a damn lie. Once gay always gay. That's like saying a straight person can turn gay. I know that no matter what happens in my life, I will always be straight, even if I choose the live a gay lifestyle. Ultimately I'm still straight. Just like gay people. Even if they lie to themselves and try to live a straight lifestyle it's foolery.

I guess that's another big problem I have with religion is that this old ass bible, quaran or whatever form of text someone reads from is telling people that if they do this or that they are a sinner that's going to hell. In life shit happens, okay. I won't lie, I'm not going to say that I think the majority of gay people are born that way, but I don't think that just because someone is gay they can turn straight. To me, that's foolish hopes that will only lead you to a depressing life. I think that when people accept the fact that they're gay, their lives will be much more happier and easier. Less stress.

For those that can keep a good grip on both and believe in their hearts that even though they're gay, they can still go to heaven, more power. I don't like the thought of people being miserable because they feel they're doing wrong with natural feelings they have.

I guess now I'm starting to feel a lot more for gay people than before. I guess it's because where I was growing up, and the people I was growing up with, they were pretty accepting and I never noticed them talk badly about anybody regarding race, age, gender, sexual orientation, or anything. The only thing I knew was from my experience which was racism. But now that I can really SEE the issues homosexuals have, I feel more... I don't know. I feel like they need some support. I'll look at it like black people. I know more than enough black people that wish they were white. It sickens me. And it sickens me even more to know that some gay people will really go through the things they would to become straight. I'm just really accepting as a person and I don't want anyone to feel like they need to change something like that because society thinks something is wrong with them (except people that dress inappropriately or wear something inappropriate at the wrong times. I mean, it's not going to kill you to change that).

I don't practice any religion by the way. I believe in a god in everyone, like, a persons Chi. But no one knows yet.

@ Ayana Sioux

Didn't the president of Exodus International go on that show specifically to say that he no longer thinks homosexuality can be 'cured' / 'prayed away'? (I'm asking because I haven't seen the show, but I've read about it online.)

@ kafka.
He did say that and I guess his group is no longer promoting reparative therapy.... but he then went on to talk about how his homosexual feelings were easily cured when he married his wife, so I'm not sure how sincere/serious he was.

Kurtni:

He did say that and I guess his group is no longer promoting reparative therapy.... but he then went on to talk about how his homosexual feelings were easily cured when he married his wife, so I'm not sure how sincere/serious he was.

Did he say that? The article I read, he said he was grateful to have such an "understanding" wife and that he still felt "same-sex attraction" though didn't specify whether this was exclusive or distracting or merely occasional. This was the same interview where he made the comment that over several decades he'd found that "99.9%" of people in the programs were not 'cured' of their homosexual feelings.

@ pravda.
He kind of says it both ways. "So am I heterosexual? I don't know, I'm not gay. I have Leslie attractions. I have opposite sex attractions."

http://exodusinternational.org/2012/08/alan-chambers-extended-interview-with-owns-lisa-ling/

You can watch the interview there.

@ kafka.
No, he didn't say that. He said that just because someone is homosexual that doesn't mean they won't be able to get into heaven. At least that's what I picked up.

@ Kurtni

As I expected that interview made me feel dead inside.

I sometimes fear that religious groups / individuals have gotten better at hiding homophobia and that they now expect to be able to attract queer people (and / or their allies?) into their churches by showing them a sliver of token support, but I was reading about the Cathedral of Hope and how they severed ties with the MMC when they felt like the MMC was pressuring them into being 'too gay' when they wanted to reach out to non-queer community(ies) - so I think, perhaps, just like LGB voters' biggest concern is the economy not same-sex marriage, the biggest concern of LGB religious people is salvation not the sinfulness of homosexuality and 'interfaith' (?) 'pro-gay' (?) projects like the MMC are destined to fail - either by disintegrating due to the lack of shared beliefs among parishioners or by coagulating around a single faith / theology which treats gayness as a minor / irrelevant issue in the grand scheme of things.

Sexual orientation seriously has NOTHING to do with religion.

dru's hammer.:

@ Kurtni
I think their morals are based upon what their morals actually are, not what church they belong to. And I don't like to group a whole bunch of people together like that and generalize them, ever, so I would disagree with your way of doing that.

Of course we should judge their morals based on what the person believes. Morals aren't the issue here, actions are. The real world effects of a church on the LGBT community matter. Your morals have no consequences though, but your actions do have consequences. A consequence of belonging to a bigoted church is enabling bigotry, no matter what your morals are.

I'm not generalizing them, I am making a clear distinction between Catholics who are homophobic and those who are not. Even with that distinction though, morals don't matter, the money of LGBT "allies" and anti-gay bigots goes to the same place. Their membership goes to the same place.

@ Kurtni
I already asked what if they don't contribute money and you said it didn't matter. What if they don't go to church regularly? (My boyfriend's an Easter/Christmas church goer, like a lot of people, and I doubt he'd go then except his mom makes him.)

I also don't see what their membership has to do with it.

@ dru's hammer.
Different churches have different regulations as far as what it means to be a "member," so I can't give a blanket answer to that. To be a member of a Catholic Church, I believe you have to be confirmed and reaffirm your faith in the church (not just your individual beliefs) regularly.

If they don't go to church regularly, I'd question the sincerity of their concerns about salvation and souls since they aren't all that dedicated to their faith. I don't really think it matters if you go to a bigoted church once a week or once a year though, you're still patronizing the church, which is support.

If I just attended a KKK meeting once a year, would that be ok? Just when they talked about cleaning the high way I drive on...

(EDIT: Now that we switched threads, that last comment looks weird. So, disclaimer, Kurtni is not a KKK member or looking to become one...)

@ Kurtni
The KKK came into existence because of the belief in white supremacy. It is the focal point of their group. Catholicism exists as a pathway to God between Catholics and their Holy Father. The focal point is not discrimination against GLBT individuals and that is not why they came into existence. I feel like you are comparing apples to oranges. Like when people compare abortion doctors to murderers. It just doesn't actually work when you break it down.

As to going to church making one a "good, dedicated" Catholic/Christian/anyone, going to the church makes one a good Catholic the same way going to the garage makes one a good car. You do not need to go to church to have a relationship with God or be part of a faith.

@ dru's hammer.
Who gives a shit what their focal point is? What matters is their actions today, and their actions hurt gay people (and women and science, etc. It's not a singular bad thing we're talking about). The focal point of the Republican party is not to fuck LGBT over either, but they do. It's so irresponsible to overlook the bad of an organization in favor of the parts you like. If you wear rose tinted glasses to the things you do though, it does make it really easy to fuck LGBT people over, so I'm sure most "pro-gay" people in a bad church would say the same thing.

The Catholic church is a very subversive and manipulative thing. They may not preach about LGBT rights regularly, or remind your constantly that they hurt gay people every single day, probably so people don't have to feel guilty. It doesn't matter where homophobia ranks on their mission list, or what their original message was (as though the Catholic church has some wonderful past with LGBT people? yeah freaking right) because they still prominently and financially block gay rights.

---

The Catholic Church says otherwise; regular attendance is important. To make the personal decision that the church attendance is not important is a rejection of Catholic values. I don't think you can be a legitimate member of a parish if you do not attend semi-regularly and receive communion.

If you don't attend church, it makes no sense to worry about how membership will affect your soul. that's a petty, cop-out excuse to not confront how you're enabling homophobia. If you're not going regularly, you're not a member. You just identify with certain Catholic beliefs like kafka. explained in her post.

Sigh, there've always been a lot of very good excuses not to stand up against the abuse LGBT people suffer - if there hadn't been the abuse would have been stopped hundreds of years ago. I think the Catholic Church's opposition to same-sex marriage is, in itself, a rather irrelevant issue given that with the current perception of sex / sexuality / marriage in Catholicism, same-sex matrimony isn't as much banned as it doesn't exist - e.g. see the way for a marriage to be 'valid' / real it has to be 'consumated' through (hetero)sexual intercourse. The bigger problem for me is the fact that the CC supported the criminalization of homosexuality for centuries - for centuries. They've killed thousands of people in horrible ways. And although in recent years they've been pressured to lobby against it, the CC still hasn't recognized that what they did was wrong and apologized for it.

I think as Christians we have a duty to love and care for each other - that entails doing our best not just to eliminate homophobia / all kinds of oppression in society at large, but to try to make sure that God's message is presented to all accurately and that everyone has access to salvation. I don't want the next generation of Catholic / Orthodox / etc queer people to be alienated not just from their religious communities but also from God because of homophobia like all past generations have been. If you truly believe in the necessity of seeking salvation, then you must also believe that all those people believing in a very wrong version / interpretation of Scripture or abandoning their faith are endangering their souls not just their temporary well-being - we're most probably condemning people to eternal torment, not just earthly pain, this is a very serious problem. Yes, 'gay Catholic' organizations as well as stuff like MMC have existed in Western, mostly Anglophone countries for over 20 years, but I think often they're too well behaved and quiet - and even when they're outspoken, there's still so much to be done if they / we want to change attitudes towards LGBT people and what's necessary more than anything is for individuals to refuse to collaborate with homophobia. Homophobia is not this thing that a small group of very evil people invented then brainwashed us all into believing - it's something we construct through our day to day choices - so real change can only come from individuals not central(ized) institutions.

@ dru's hammer.
Okay, see that's my problem.
I myself am gay, 17 and told that I would burn in oblivion.
Also, since when is it okay to chose wheter or not someone can be married?
The government has taken away our right to marry, serve and adopt - and they wonder why we kill ourselves and crave for you to open your eyes.
I believe I was born gay.
Another thing - it's not a "Life Style Choice" it's what we are.
Our "Life Style" is no different than yours.
I have sex with males - that's it.
Since when did F - ing men seem unatrual. It's a pleasure principle.
I'm telling you now, give us what we want or we'll keep waving our banners and screaming in curses. (I'm not the protest-y type, becuase to me it's a complete waste of time while i could be studying or writing.)
The problem isn't us, it's the bible bashing fein who starts it.
I'm damn well sickened by mankind.
You always say "PEACE NOT WAR"
HELLO, are you f - ing blund?
We want to have peace, you bully, beat and bash us and rape us of our pride.
Well, shame on you.
You can shove your peace and love hippie sh - t and shove it right up your ass.
Because that's not equality, it's decrimination.
What a f - cking liberty.

And another thing - NOT EVERYONE IS A CHRISTIAN so quit referencing it.

@ zainmjily
a) I'm not straight and am certainly not anti-gay so I don't know why you're ranting at me like I think I am.

b) This is the homosexuality and religion thread. We were specifically discussing Catholicism and homosexuality. That is why I am referencing it.

The reference isn't needed because not every gay is christian. I myself am Wiccan

zainmjily:

The reference isn't needed because not every gay is christian. I myself am Wiccan

No one said every gay was Christian, if you read the conversation. The reference is needed because we were discussing the Catholic church's relationship to homosexuality. Whether you're Catholic or not is absolutely irrelevant, because the Catholic church hurts all LGBT people.