Religion and Homosexuality

  • folie a dru.

    folie a dru. (1270)

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    I know I made Catholics sound like mindless drones and I wasn't trying to do that. Defying what someone says about contraception or GLBT rights, I think, is different than leaving a church that says you'll burn in hell if you do so.
    September 23rd, 2012 at 08:04pm
  • kafka.

    kafka. (150)

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    dru is screaming.:
    I know I made Catholics sound like mindless drones and I wasn't trying to do that. Defying what someone says about contraception or GLBT rights, I think, is different than leaving a church that says you'll burn in hell if you do so.
    I find this situation / discussion so frustrating because neither the CC catechism nor the Bible nor any other official document of the CC actually says that if you protest the church's earthly representatives but keep God's commandments as well as the chuch's main beliefs you'll 'burn in hell' - what the CC does say will lead to you burning in hell is not committing to a lifetime of celibacy / pretty much acting not heterosexual in any way (celibacy as non-heterosexuality is a very interimg discussion, though perhaps for some other time / thread?). I'm sorry that it seems 'unfair' to demand more than token / wishywashy occassional support - having to suffer from homophobia is pretty unfair too. If you collaborate with a system of oppression, you collaborate to the oppression - you are guilty and responsible for it.
    September 25th, 2012 at 12:42pm
  • Kurtni

    Kurtni (10125)

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    dru is screaming.:
    I know I made Catholics sound like mindless drones and I wasn't trying to do that. Defying what someone says about contraception or GLBT rights, I think, is different than leaving a church that says you'll burn in hell if you do so.
    You're being very picky-choosy in what's acceptable to defy and what isn't, and I think some Catholics may disagree with you that disregarding rules about contraception is no biggie and your soul will be fine. That's a matter of murder and sanctity of life in their belief system.
    September 25th, 2012 at 02:35pm
  • folie a dru.

    folie a dru. (1270)

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    @ Kurtni
    There are sins and there are unforgivable sins that equal blasphemy, as far as I understand it. Those sins can't be forgiven while the others can. So, yes, I'm saying the non-forgivable sins are considered worse than those which are forgivable.
    September 25th, 2012 at 04:02pm
  • kafka.

    kafka. (150)

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    dru is screaming.:
    @ Kurtni
    There are sins and there are unforgivable sins that equal blasphemy, as far as I understand it. Those sins can't be forgiven while the others can. So, yes, I'm saying the non-forgivable sins are considered worse than those which are forgivable.
    Blasphemy as in disagreeing with specific Church representatives / doctrines is not necessarily an eternal sin, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is - and forms of this include refusing to repent for a sin you've committed repeatedly as well as 'resistence to the truth' i.e. knowing that something is true, that a type of behaviour is a sin but living in a state of cognitive disonance in which you refuse to acknowledge this truth / apply it in real life. Repeatedly using birth control while you know doing so is a sin would definitely be blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
    September 25th, 2012 at 04:21pm
  • folie a dru.

    folie a dru. (1270)

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    @ kafka.
    My boyfriend was taught leaving Catholicism is blasphemy.
    September 25th, 2012 at 04:23pm
  • Lovebites xo

    Lovebites xo (100)

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    I think that religion is the main cause of any type of discrimination. Especially in the western world religion inadverntly governs pretty much everything to a certain extent. Human rights and our laws included.

    I'm not saying what the bible teaches us is wrong and that it's a bad thing, I'm Catholic and I take my religion seriously but I don't let it govern what I say or do or how I treat other people. God created us all, for any religion to be true that has to of happened, it's said that he created us in his own image (not literally more the qualities we posses like authority leadership and inelligence) if he created us, he created us as individuals. Were not all the same, and yes some of us were born homosexual.

    A persons gender is purely phsycological not biological. You are born with your sexuality as you are with your gender. I would like to prove this by highlighting some of the key points of a particular case study. The case study of David Reimer: born a boy raised a girl. This showed how a little boy called Bruce could be conditioned into thinking he was a girl, his parents raised him as a girl called Brenda for thirteen years, yet despite never being told so he knew he was actually male despite the fact he did not have a penis.

    This shows that you are born a certain way, it is predetermined at birth down at the chromosome level, it is the same for your sexuality. So if god actually did create us why would be make it so some people are homosexuals If he thought it was a sin? Why should we think that it is a sin when it was god that made people that way in the first place.
    September 26th, 2012 at 09:45pm
  • Xsoteria

    Xsoteria (100)

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    ^There hasn't really been any firm scientific evidence (that I know of) which proved that gender and especially sexuality, are determined at birth, due to chromosomes or genetics. Sexuality is more of a fluid thing, rather than something set in stone. It changes and evolves, but this is all completely involuntary.

    But it comes down to the same thing really, people don't make choices about their sexuality.
    September 27th, 2012 at 02:48pm
  • kafka.

    kafka. (150)

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    dru will wait.:
    @ kafka.
    My boyfriend was taught leaving Catholicism is blasphemy.
    I don't really understand why or how the fact you say he says he was told something is an argument for anything.
    Lovebites xo:
    I think that religion is the main cause of any type of discrimination. Especially in the western world religion inadverntly governs pretty much everything to a certain extent. Human rights and our laws included.
    Actually, when it comes to homophobia that's really not very true. Outside of mainly Catholic / mainly Protestant countries (and in some cases even in those, see, for example, Spain), homophobia was caused to a very large extent by colonialism and racism. In most African countries where homosexuality is criminalized today, the laws criminalizing it were introduced by colonial governments in order to 'eradicate' the 'unnatural' sexual behaviours of the native popular - this had a lot to do with the way imperialist / racist discourses view non-white people as 'hypersexual'. In European non-Catholic/non-Protestant countries, homosexuality was criminalized as a means of population control, because the fact that same-sex couples can't have children was seen as a threat to the state (which really wanted people to have a lot of babies so it would have a large population to send in wars etc) (this is the case especially with Russia and Romania, but other countries as well). Sure, various religions / churches did jump on the bandwagon afterwards - and that should not be excused / forgotten, but that doesn't mean they were its main cause. It's important not to assume that homosexuality / homophobia are transcultural / transnational universal experiences - because they're not.
    September 29th, 2012 at 10:33am
  • folie a dru.

    folie a dru. (1270)

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    @ kafka.
    I do. What the church leaders say is what goes in his faith. Going against that is going against God. Like I said, for unforgiveable sins, it means an afterlife in hell (they believe). And, like I said, I don't think that people are required to damn themselves to prove a point.
    September 29th, 2012 at 03:06pm
  • Kurtni

    Kurtni (10125)

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    @ dru will wait.
    What his priest said was wrong and does not reflect legitimate Catholic principles though. Catholicism is arranged in a hierarchy and a preist at some church in America cannot override general principles of the entire faith, that's heretical.
    September 29th, 2012 at 04:37pm
  • Lovebites xo

    Lovebites xo (100)

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    @ Xsoteria
    There is plenty of psychological and scientific evidence that proves you are born with your gender, there has been a lot of research into it and although some parts of it can be influenced by society you are still born with it. I figure the same goes with your sexuality, in most cases at least. Most people don't choose it though some people do indeed choose to explore it to see if they do like it when they know they have no attraction but i find that's different to being genuinely attracted to people of the opposite sex, having the ability to fall in love with them.
    October 1st, 2012 at 06:52pm
  • Kurtni

    Kurtni (10125)

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    Lovebites xo:
    @ Xsoteria
    There is plenty of psychological and scientific evidence that proves you are born with your gender, there has been a lot of research into it and although some parts of it can be influenced by society you are still born with it. I figure the same goes with your sexuality, in most cases at least. Most people don't choose it though some people do indeed choose to explore it to see if they do like it when they know they have no attraction but i find that's different to being genuinely attracted to people of the opposite sex, having the ability to fall in love with them.
    What research are you speaking of? Gender is entirely a social concept and all modern psychological research supports that, as summarized here by the World Health Organization. What a "girl" is in the UK for example is different than in India or China. I think you're confusing sex, an inborn biological trait, with gender, a social construct, and using that misconception to make an argument for sexuality...
    October 1st, 2012 at 07:08pm
  • The Rumor

    The Rumor (365)

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    Not to mention that gender and sexuality are two different and separate things.
    October 1st, 2012 at 07:59pm
  • folie a dru.

    folie a dru. (1270)

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    @ Lovebites xo
    I'm confused as to what you're talking about. Gender has nothing to do with who you are attracted to ...
    October 2nd, 2012 at 05:29am
  • kafka.

    kafka. (150)

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    The Rumor:
    Not to mention that gender and sexuality are two different and separate things.
    So would some people want you to believe (mostly because calling someone 'woman-like' is still seen as one of the worst possible insults so gay men invest a lot of energy into telling people that gender has nothing to do with sexuality), but, actually, heterosexuality is built into gender (roles) so non-heterosexuality disturbs gender. This is especially true for women because femaleness is tied to marriage and motherhood a lot more than maleness is (and although we live in a world with IVF and same-sex marriage, for most queer women both are still unattainable - and having a baby through IVF is very different from having a baby by having sex with your husband, anyway). Not to mention all the ways in which women are supposed to be submissive in relationships, remain 'chaste' outside heterosexual marriage, wait to be pursued by the man, etc - or butch and femme subcultures which are a deliberate play on gender roles.
    October 2nd, 2012 at 08:59am
  • Xsoteria

    Xsoteria (100)

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    ^Heterosexuality is a pretty straight forward definition, and I have no idea where you pulled all that out of. There are certain concepts which are tied to it, one of which you could argue is cisgenderism - but that certainly doesn't involve all the beating into submission you just mentioned.

    Either way, it still doesn't change the fact that homosexuality or our selfidentified gender aren't burnt into our genes.
    October 2nd, 2012 at 02:13pm
  • folie a dru.

    folie a dru. (1270)

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    @ kafka.
    Sexuality and gender may be biasedly linked together, but your gender does not affect who you are attracted to. Women can be attracted to women, regardless of society telling them it's wrong. Just like a woman without a family is still a family. Just 'cause ignorant people judge it doesn't mean that it's a fact, just a perpetuated stereotype. And we shouldn't say gender and sexuality are liked just because ignorant people like to pretend they are.

    A guy at the frolf course once said 'I just don't get people like that [trans individuals] ... just be gay already.'

    My trans sister is gay. Facepalm
    October 2nd, 2012 at 06:34pm
  • kafka.

    kafka. (150)

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    dru will wait.:
    @ kafka.
    Sexuality and gender may be biasedly linked together, but your gender does not affect who you are attracted to. Women can be attracted to women, regardless of society telling them it's wrong. Just like a woman without a family is still a family. Just 'cause ignorant people judge it doesn't mean that it's a fact, just a perpetuated stereotype. And we shouldn't say gender and sexuality are liked just because ignorant people like to pretend they are.

    A guy at the frolf course once said 'I just don't get people like that [trans individuals] ... just be gay already.'

    My trans sister is gay. Facepalm
    But it's not a matter of asking whether women being attracted to women is "wrong", it's a matter of asking women who are attracted to women how they perceive their gender / gender expression / gender roles in a culture which defines women by their attraction to men. As Kurtni.'s post illustrated, gender is a cultural construct - we all define our genders by what our culture tells us about them - and just look at how often single women who are not interested in dating anybody appear in Hollywood films - practically never, or look at media aimed at young women / girls and see how much of it is preoccupied with the subject of dating, then compare that with media aimed at young men / boys. Or, look at it from this perspective - how often will a man who isn't conventionally 'attractive' be accused of being 'effeminate'? Not very often, in fact, 'attractive' men are just as, if not more, prone to being accused of womanliness because paying a lot of attention to your clothes etc is seen as 'womanly'. Whereas a woman who dresses in 'unattractive' clothing is very often chided for being 'unfeminine' and 'manly'.
    October 2nd, 2012 at 07:45pm
  • The Rumor

    The Rumor (365)

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    @ kafka.
    So how come stereotypically butch lesbians don't identify as male? Gender and sexuality are two separate things because they do not dictate each other. Maybe they are linked through stereotypes, society and prejudice but to the individual they are different things. Someone being straight doesn't have anything to so with their gender or transgendered identity and the same goes for other sexualities too.

    Gay men tell people that gender has nothing to do with sexuality because it doesn't. A gay man is no more womanly than a straight man - in that both can be effeminate or masculine but they are still male regardless.
    October 2nd, 2012 at 08:47pm