Religion and Homosexuality

  • kafka.

    kafka. (150)

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    The Rumor:
    @ kafka.
    So how come stereotypically butch lesbians don't identify as male? Gender and sexuality are two separate things because they do not dictate each other. Maybe they are linked through stereotypes, society and prejudice but to the individual they are different things. Someone being straight doesn't have anything to so with their gender or transgendered identity and the same goes for other sexualities too.

    Gay men tell people that gender has nothing to do with sexuality because it doesn't. A gay man is no more womanly than a straight man - in that both can be effeminate or masculine but they are still male regardless.
    Why would a butch lesbian want to identify as male? That would completely miss the point of challenging gender roles / stereotypes / expectations. (Note: not that I think most people start being gender nonconformist out of a desire to break the binary etc, most gender nonconformist adults were gender nonconformist children / young people - but I think it's highly unlikely that as you grow up and have to deal with bullying / teasing / general backlash for not conforming to gender expectations you don't realize that what you're doing can't be just a personal / individual choice, it must work within the whole system of beliefs / ideas about gender.) All gender is an accumulation of stereotypes, society and prejudice - we don't select our genders based on preferences, we don't live in a cultural vacuum - our bodies are gendered (whether we're cis or trans) and the society we live in reads them as gendered - and after it does that, it proceeds to treat us very differently based on our gender. So, your gender does dictate the way you perceive yourself as a queer / not straight person and it dictates the way society perceives you as a queer / not straight person because models of cis female nonheterosexuality are very different from models of cis male nonheterosexuality - and when it comes to trans people it's even more complicated.

    I've already said that gay men's thoughts and feelings about how much homosexuality perturbs gender are very biased by the fact that womanliness is considered very degrading.
    October 4th, 2012 at 09:19am
  • folie a dru.

    folie a dru. (1270)

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    @ kafka.
    I just don't see how any of that has to do with your gender affecting who you are attracted to.
    October 5th, 2012 at 04:38pm
  • KaitlinandCompany

    KaitlinandCompany (100)

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    I'm not very religious, even though I grew up in a VERY catholic environment. Baptized, saved, all that jazz. Church every Wednesday night and Sunday morning. Private catholic school complete with ugly uniforms.

    I told my father (the religious one in the family) that I didn't want anything to do with the church anymore after I found out (at 11 years old) that my cousin Analee and her girlfriend Ciara couldn't be legally married in Florida and the church wanted nothing to do with them.

    After having the idea of a loving and forgiving god shoved down my throat for my entire life up to that point, I found it ridiculous and hypocritical that they were "wrong and disgusting" for loving eachother. It's one of the stupidest and most illogical arguments ever to have become a major issue in my opinion, and it's sad that the LGBT community (myself included) has to figt for marriage.

    Marriage is listed as a right, and supposedly we're all supposed to be able to peruse happiness in whatever form that is for us in our oh-so-fabulous nation. :|
    October 6th, 2012 at 05:46am
  • Lovebites xo

    Lovebites xo (100)

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    @ Kurtni
    No, sex is what you are born with what is indicated by your genitals. Everyone knows that. Gender is made up from your traits (masculine, feminine and androgenous) you can find out your gender by doing the bem androgeny test (you can do it online if you want, I suggest you do it's quite interesting, it turns out even though biologically I'm a girl psychologically I'm a man. I think this explains why I'm bisexual but that's just a theory)

    As for the research have a look at the case of David reimmer in detail, I did a module on it in psychology and it's an interesting piece of research.
    October 24th, 2012 at 07:52pm
  • Kurtni

    Kurtni (10125)

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    @ Lovebites xo
    David Reimmer is one unethical case study, not a comprehensive body of research that proves you are born with gender. Clearly his situation is not the normal way we acquire gender and the research is flawed, as his parents admitted they lied to the researchers on a regular basis. We have no idea how they really treated their 'daughter' or if they made legitimate attempts to raise him as a girl (and clearly that was a horrible, unethical decision).

    If what you were saying was true, then the female gender and the male gender would be the same cross culturally, and that's not the case. Certainly, biology affects the expression of gender, but I think you're wrong (and using bad research) to claim it's a biological concept.
    October 24th, 2012 at 08:01pm
  • Lovebites xo

    Lovebites xo (100)

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    @ Kurtni
    I was implying that as soon as David hit puberty he felt that he was a boy which proves that even though he was brought up as a girl (nurture) he knew he wasn't so no matter how unethical it was which it was and I don't condone what dr money did because it was horrible but it shows how it's biological.
    October 24th, 2012 at 08:10pm
  • Lovebites xo

    Lovebites xo (100)

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    @ Kurtni
    Which is the point I am trying to prove.
    October 24th, 2012 at 08:11pm
  • kafka.

    kafka. (150)

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    Lovebites xo:
    @ Kurtni
    No, sex is what you are born with what is indicated by your genitals. Everyone knows that. Gender is made up from your traits (masculine, feminine and androgenous) you can find out your gender by doing the bem androgeny test (you can do it online if you want, I suggest you do it's quite interesting, it turns out even though biologically I'm a girl psychologically I'm a man. I think this explains why I'm bisexual but that's just a theory)

    As for the research have a look at the case of David reimmer in detail, I did a module on it in psychology and it's an interesting piece of research.
    I think you might be misunderstanding what the Bem Sex Role test is? It's based on gender / sex stereotypes and its purpose is to give you contradictory results (e.g. if you identify as male, tell you you have feminine traits) because it's meant to prove that gender / sex stereotypes are restrictive and make no sense.
    October 24th, 2012 at 10:08pm
  • Answering.Alexandra.

    Answering.Alexandra. (100)

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    I'm a Christian, and I am probably more on the liberal side of conservative, if that makes any sense. Many of my friends don't agree with gay rights or marriage, but I support it 100%. I know that we're born the way that God wants us, and He made gays feel that way for a reason, even if some of you say that He didn't. I'm not saying God controls every aspect of our lives, but He does create us and who He knows we're going to be. My best friend is gay. Because of his struggle, I know how hard it is to come out to people. Some of his friends don't even know yet. But what I'm trying to say is that everyone should be supportive of gays or whomever because we're all put on this earth for a reason. You shouldn't be taunted, mistreated, or criticized for who you are.

    Let people love who they want to.

    Like John Lennon said, "It matters not who you love, where you love, why you love, when you love, or how you love. It matters only that you love."
    November 5th, 2012 at 06:36am
  • Tofindme

    Tofindme (110)

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    WHy should religion decide if homosexuality is right or not?
    My church believes that homosexuality is wrong, and most people I know, consequently, think it's wrong, but I think its fine!
    If a man loves another man; let him be!
    Sure, my church will argue that man/man or woman/woman isnt love because they cant put vagina into vagina because vagina was made for penis, but honestly? We were made for more than reproduction!
    We were made to love one another freely, to believe what we wish, and to give to those in need.
    SO why cant we do that?
    Why cant we love whoever we choose without caring what others think? Why cant we all just believe in being happy? Why cant we give these couples their well deserved privacy?
    November 11th, 2012 at 04:23am
  • folie a dru.

    folie a dru. (1270)

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    @ Boom HERE I Am
    I've heard the 'can't reproduce' argument before, but rarely from church. I usually hear them quote scripture instead (Leviticus 20:13, among the other six versions admonishing homosexuality).

    What anyone fails to realize is that homosexuality in the Bible is never discussed in the context of a loving, monogamous relationship ... it's always casual sex, which is a sin for anyone, according to the Bible.
    November 12th, 2012 at 04:03am
  • Ayana Sioux

    Ayana Sioux (1175)

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    I don't know, I have to argue and say that I think we were made pretty much solely for reproduction. We just make ourselves and want to believe other things, but to really face reality, I think that's the main and/or sole thing.

    But it doesn't matter to me. I'm not Christian so to me, nothing is a sin. Things are just bad and good.
    November 17th, 2012 at 11:57pm
  • charming.

    charming. (135)

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    Ayana Sioux:
    I don't know, I have to argue and say that I think we were made pretty much solely for reproduction. We just make ourselves and want to believe other things, but to really face reality, I think that's the main and/or sole thing.
    Heterosexuality isn't the same thing as reproduction. (Otherwise there wouldn't be heterosexuals on birth control.) Some people are infertile - gay people have an obstacle in the way of their fertility. Sexuality isn't the be-all/end-all of parenting, even if you think parenting is the be-all/end-all of life.

    Also your last comment seems to imply that you think homosexuality isn't a 'sin' but might be 'just bad' in terms of people who support it being out of touch with reality and avoiding the 'purpose' of life.
    November 18th, 2012 at 09:45am
  • wxyz

    wxyz (240)

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    @ Ayana Sioux
    Ayana Sioux:
    I don't know, I have to argue and say that I think we were made pretty much solely for reproduction.
    When the world becomes over-populated, what will our purpose be then? Will it still be reproduction?
    November 18th, 2012 at 02:43pm
  • Kurtni

    Kurtni (10125)

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    Ayana Sioux:
    I don't know, I have to argue and say that I think we were made pretty much solely for reproduction. We just make ourselves and want to believe other things, but to really face reality, I think that's the main and/or sole thing.

    But it doesn't matter to me. I'm not Christian so to me, nothing is a sin. Things are just bad and good.
    I would agree with that in a purely biological/evolutionary way, but you posted that in a religion thread, which makes it sound like you think there is some moral duty or higher meaning to reproducing, which I wouldn't aree with it all.

    I don't think we are "made" for anything, because I don't believe we have a 'maker'. I think we have the physical ability to do things like reproduce, but it's not some destiny we were given by fate.
    Alex; periphery.:
    @ Ayana Sioux

    When the world becomes over-populated, what will our purpose be then? Will it still be reproduction?
    I think the world is already overpopulated, but reproduction is still any animal population's goal when they become overpopulated. Is that a bad thing? Overpopulation drives evolutionary advancement.
    November 18th, 2012 at 04:23pm
  • wxyz

    wxyz (240)

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    Kurtni:
    I think the world is already overpopulated, but reproduction is still any animal population's goal when they become overpopulated. Is that a bad thing? Overpopulation drives evolutionary advancement.
    To a certain extent, yes, but there has to be an eventual limit, surely?
    November 18th, 2012 at 04:36pm
  • Kurtni

    Kurtni (10125)

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    @ Alex; periphery.
    I don't think there is anything to impose a limit, at least on humans. For most animals there is a carrying capacity limit, sure, where the excess population that isn't fit dies off. But even if we do reach a certain population we cannot sustain, that wouldn't change the fact that reproduction is always the mechanism of evolution.

    And I don't think this should be demeaning or seen as a criticism of homosexuality, infertile people or straight people who don't have kids. It's not a moral statement or a value; it's just a fact. Reproduction drives evolution, but so what? If you don't want to have kids, don't have kids. Evolution doesn't have a consciousness with which to judge.
    November 18th, 2012 at 05:00pm
  • folie a dru.

    folie a dru. (1270)

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    And not everyone wants to have children or reproduce.
    November 18th, 2012 at 07:38pm
  • Ayana Sioux

    Ayana Sioux (1175)

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    pravda.:
    Heterosexuality isn't the same thing as reproduction. (Otherwise there wouldn't be heterosexuals on birth control.) Some people are infertile - gay people have an obstacle in the way of their fertility. Sexuality isn't the be-all/end-all of parenting, even if you think parenting is the be-all/end-all of life.
    I wouldn't consider being infertile something that was biologically supposed to happen, but something that happened due to a defeat and etc. Don't mix to two together though. The point I was making was referring to dru's comment about reproduction and how I think that was our key purpose in life (biologically).
    Quote
    Also your last comment seems to imply that you think homosexuality isn't a 'sin' but might be 'just bad' in terms of people who support it being out of touch with reality and avoiding the 'purpose' of life.
    I don't know what to say about this. I've had enough discussions with you regarding homosexuality and by this point unless you truly believe I think being anything other than straight is a "bad" thing, then that's up to you, regardless of what I say.

    @ Alex; periphery.
    What Courtney said.

    @ Kurtni
    My purpose for posting that was solely because Dru made a comment about what the bible says about reproduction and I was saying that I had to agree with the bible on those terms because I do believe that's our main purpose, to reproduce. If not, there would be no "us". There would be nothing.
    November 18th, 2012 at 10:36pm
  • wxyz

    wxyz (240)

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    People tend to use the "reproduction is the main/sole purpose of life" argument aligned with the idea that "homosexuality is bad because it could be detrimental to the human race". The moment it is admitted that homosexuality is not a choice, and therefore not 'promotable' or similarly likely to increase drastically, the argument is rendered useless. And, although this is a bit of a cliché in homosexuality-related debates (not that that detracts from its validity however), the people who hammer home the 'fact' that reproduction is the main/sole purpose of life seem to be forgetting to hammer it home to heterosexual people who either choose not to or cannot have children.
    November 19th, 2012 at 12:55am