Is God Real?

Kurtni:

Personally, I find the assumption that you think I implied culture to be evolutionary ridiculous, but not as ridiculous as the idea enculturation some how acts as evidence for God's existence.

Reducing moral values to enculturation is just staking up tortoises on top of each other because you still need a 'first mover' culture who had the brilliant idea of inventing or, possibly discovering, moral values.

Toby Turner:

it is such a fundamental point that I think some people forget. I mean, I'm an atheist but I can see how God can very easily slot into the evolution theory. For me, they have to be treated as two different things.

Exactly, but many atheists, at least, suggest that if evolution is true, God can't be. And for Christian's God is true, therefore evolution can't be. [I believe in both but there is a bit of an issue of why and where original sin would enter the human race if we did evolve from an ape-like creature]. Then again, one can believe in God without believing in original sin, so that is purely an issue for Christians not people who believe in a God/gods in general.

Pointless thread is pointless.
I skipped to the end because I'm pretty sure the chunk in the middle is a fight of fire with fire and it's still at a stalemate.
There's always going to be atheist versus non-atheist for any religion.

^ Just because there's not going to be a quick and easy or even final answer to the question, that doesn't mean that it's a pointless thread. The question fuels plenty of discussion, which is the basis for this part of the forum.

Alex; subterfuge.:

^ Just because there's not going to be a quick and easy or even final answer to the question, that doesn't mean that it's a pointless thread. The question fuels plenty of discussion, which is the basis for this part of the forum.

Quite honestly, I think God's actual existence is the rarest topic in this thread, because so many other discussions come into play.

^ That's true. What I was meaning was that discussion/debating is the basis for these forums. :)

There is no actual proof of God's excistence. The bible has most likely been re-written many times, so there's no actual proof of his excistence. There's not really any possible way to tell if God ever excisted.

And on a related note... to the argument whether or not god exists:

Quote

The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets killed on the next zebra crossing.

@GerardWayObsessed depends on what you mean by proof. Which has already been discussed and debated before on this thread. I'm a Christian and strongly believe in God's existence. The Bible has been transcribed and 'rewritten' and translated and transliterated etc etc, but that doesn't necessarily mean that God doesn't exist. Yes, you're right there is no hard and fast proof, [unless you take the view that the fact that we exist is proof enough which is what I believe, oh and the fact that The Bible exists] that God exists, but that doesn't mean he doesn't.

Just saying :)

@leaf's wierd I love that quote but it doesn't mean or prove much. After all proof doesn't deny faith, and without faith God still exists.

^I'd disagree there. I'm not saying god would cease to exist without faith, but with proof faith would vanish.

Sorry, I should've added the qualifier, in my personal belief. Obviously, as we've already discussed there's no proof of God's existence. And the thing is I have a faith in God, but it's not the same definition of faith as you seem to have. When I talk about faith in God I'm not saying I have faith that He exists. What I mean is that I have faith [=a reasoning trust] that God will guide me through life, that He will get me through the hard times and that He saved me from eternal death. That is what faith is to me.

Faith does not equal "Oh, I have faith God exists." As in, 'I sure hope God exists' Or 'I sure hope this bridge isn't going to collapse'. Because I don't think that way. I truly believe in God. Faith is something else.

If that makes any sense. I know what I'm trying to say, not so sure it's translating across in words...lol.

leaf's wierd:

^I'd disagree there. I'm not saying god would cease to exist without faith, but with proof faith would vanish.

Depends how you define faith. I have proof my family and friends exist, and I still have faith in them.

(I think this may have been the definition the pies endure was going for, correct me if I'm wrong. )

^I get what both of you are saying. There are two distinct kinds of faith. The faith you have that your family and friends, versus the faith you have that something exists. Believing something exists and believing that someone will succeed are two entirely different things.

I'm just saying that faith in existence (not faith in doing), which is a valid form of faith, IMO, will fade if god was somehow proven to exist. I'd image that some people *might* lose their faith in doing as well, if god was proven to exist. If they know he exists, and know that he will guide people through life... faith wouldn't be as necessary for everyone.

^
I agree the faith in God's existence would disappear, but only because it would be replaced with the fact that he exists so there's no need to wonder anymore. I think there would be increased numbers in worship services, religious riots, murders, and a lot of people trying to do better. Basically, religion on crack. I don't think we're a mature enough society to handle the facts if it were to be proven God does exist.

Yes, you're right faith in the existence of God would disappear, because there would be no need for it, but faith IN God Himself wouldn't. That would still remain.

I would have to disagree with you leaf about people losing faith in 'doing'. I don't think if we had proof God exists that it would mean we knew everything about Him or what His intent was. We'd still have to have faith in Him to provide for us. I believe that is. As I truly believe He exists and that nature is proof enough, I still need faith to know He will provide for me. After all, He is of the spiritual realm, and we can't have physical/natural evidence of Him working in our lives. There would always be an element of faith essentially.

If I'm making sense?

^Would it? Or would some people lose faith in what he will do and just accept it as fact? Keep in mind I'm not saying everyone would. I don't really know what would happen, though, I'm just speculating there.

leaf's wierd:

^Would it? Or would some people lose faith in what he will do and just accept it as fact? Keep in mind I'm not saying everyone would. I don't really know what would happen, though, I'm just speculating there.

True, but I don't think so, let's just assume only God's existence can be proved, not His intent, then my statement would hold true. But, if what you say could be true that His intent was proven as well, then yes, that kind of faith would probably disappear too.

Obviously it is all speculation :). Because I don't think God's existence can or will be 'proved'. :)

Even with proof of God's existance or non-existance there would still be the few people insisting that "no that's not how it is" and their faith would remain. I think a large portion of people would naturally accept fact and they wouldn't really need faith as such, but haven't we learned that people are prone to still believing what they want in some cases? Like Obama went out and showed pictures of Osama's death and yet there are speculations of whether he's really dead or not. There are speculations about 9/11 and there's still people who believe Elvis is alive.

So even with proof faith wouldn't die out completely, but the need for it wouldn't be as great.

^So, in short, there will always be conspiracy theories.

^ There will always be faith. Some people will always believe what their heart tells them, irregardless of what's been proved to them.