Is God Real?

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@ CallusedSilk

Your points and "argument" are becoming more condescending and bashing, please refrain from that so no reporting occurs :) And you are twisting my words, God is very wrathful when it comes to sin and I never said the punishments were wonderful. They aren't wonderful. No punishment is wonderful because that means a sin was committed also and sin tears up the soul.

CallusedSilk:

It's still a matter of the fact that at no point does God seem to realize that he needs to do an actual apology and actually make up for the shit he put everyone through in the old testament if there actually is a change between God and Jesus.

God didn't make people commit sin. He doesn't need to apologize for anything. It's humans who commit the acts. Again, there was no "shit" He put us through.

CallusedSilk:

And I mean a real apology, not 'I just slaughtered the entire Earth, so here's a rainbow and a promise to not do it again, which I'll only kind of sort of adhere to'.

This reference to the Flood can be checked off the list by two things: 1. No human is innocent, we have all fallen to wickedness, even children. 2. "Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Genesis 6:5).

CallusedSilk:

Why the obstacle course to his love?

There isn't an obstacle course. How hard is it to follow and love God and Jesus?

CallusedSilk:

But a lot of those actions aren't evil and if he wants all his children to be in Heaven with him, then why put us all through this nearly impossible test to begin with? Who the fuck cares if I'm pure if I have to live with my rapist? 'Cause I wouldn't. Also, that woman? She's pure no matter what. Why? Because why should it be a black mark on her record that a man came and forced her? Why is it a mark against her? Why isn't it a mark against him? Why is she the only one punished? Also, THAT'S WHEN HE REALIZED? I know we were being super respectful up until this point, but are you kidding me? HE DESIGNED US THAT WAY. He designed us that way if he created us because he's self-proclaimed omniscient and omnipotent. He then created two people in a stupid garden and then got annoyed when they did exactly the thing that he created them to do: they had free will.

Regarding the bear incident: read this because it does a better job at explaining it than I ever could.

I really hope you aren't suggesting we shouldn't have free will. You want God to put us in a box and have no choices for ourselves? Most importantly, free will does not mean evil. He didn't create Adam and Eve to do evil, He created them to be His children and give Him company. I honestly am shocked you said God created us to do evil when you have zero evidence to give and the Bible says the opposite of what you stated.

There are a few issues with the way you're thinking.

1. God did not create evil. Satan did. Evil is like darkness and the cold: they don't truly exist, they are merely absence of light and absence of heat. Evil is the absence of love. Satan was cast into an eternal pit of fire because he tried to play God in a negative way, and he tried and tempted us to not listen to God and grow far away from Him.

2. You are seeing death as a terrible thing. It isn't. With death comes life in God's Heavenly Kingdom. Death isn't actually bad thing.

3. Free will does not mean evil. Free will is the choice to be wicked or holy.

4. It isn't your fault whatsoever, but society has imprinted the "we should accept all things and be so tolerant of everything". Because of that, you don't see that anything against God's word is evil and tainted in unholiness. God is such a wonderful, Holy being that no one can comprehend the greatness of Him. Especially since we live in such a dirty, perverted society.

5.

CallusedSilk:

Just counting the bear incident, that's more killing by God than Satan ever did.

You think Satan is such a good being. He isn't. Why does he not kill? Simple: there is so much darkness, suffering and perversion here on earth that he doesn't need to do anything but continue to draw people in and get them away from the Truth of God.

6. You are naming all these things from the Old Testament. Do you not realize how different people were raised and brought up back then? The culture was 150% different from today. Back then, God was known to everyone. There was no need for this faith thing because He talked and made himself very evidently known to everyone. So, it would definitely be arrogant to do wicked things when the creator has made himself so obviously known to everyone and has shown what wicked is and how it should not be done. Which is why those laws are so harsh and in place. To go against God would be asking for it. You cannot judge law and society when it was utterly different from today and the fact you've never lived in that society nor is there one like that today because God doesn't make Himself blatantly present like He did back then.

God also is not putting us through obstacle course simply to watch us fail. You still have it stuck in your brain as if He is making us fail, when it is us and the works of the devil doing these things ourselves.

God loves us so much, He allows us to do what we please without controlling us. He could easily play Sims with us, but he doesn't. If we want to have sex with multiple people we can, if we want to murder we can, if we want to worship Satan and curse God we can. But that doesn't mean there are zero consequences.

Can this thread be used for the other Gods people believe exist? Like the Muslim god?

@ January Rose

I'm very ignorant when it comes to other religions; so what is the Muslim god like?

@ Brianna Marie
I'm not saying I'm a Muslim or anything, I'm just saying it seems like the Christian God is the only topic we are discussing. And he seems to be the bad guy in every conversation. What about the Muslim God who literally commands his people to kill non-believers? What about the Muslim God who wants his older men to marry younger woman? I'm not saying he exists, but I feel like if people on this thread want to condem our God but not anybody else's.
Or is this the wrong thread to posts my thoughts about this?

@ January Rose
No, no. I think God in this thread refers to any religion's God :)

So you're good, as long as you follow thread rules.

@ Brianna Marie
Ok. I just feel like there is a lot of bashing on the Christian God and none on any others. I'm not saying it's good to insult other religions, but I am saying if you want to talk about our God in a negative light, why not bring up the others?

@ January Rose
That's a good point. It might be because Christianity is a lot more known In places like North America and Europe so arguing something they don't really know well is hard.

@ Brianna Marie
Yah, probably.

@ Brianna Marie

Brianna Marie:

That is the sad thing about today's society: we are so "open minded" and "accepting of everything" that we make each other into objects, murder each other, steal, hate one another, sexualize everyone, all without consequence.

I'm fairly sure that has always gone on, regardless of how open- or closed-minded societies have been.

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Because that's what today's world is: free of judgment and punishment. [...] We don't judge sin and things that tear up the soul, instead, we accept them as "okay" and as a "characteristic of who we are".

Oh come on. You can't possibly think that that kind of thing goes on in countries like Uganda and Saudi Arabia? Those are just a couple of countries where Biblical and Koranic doctrine are pandered to zealously, and similarly where people are treated rather badly.

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Also, punishment as in those who do wrong, they just go to a jail where they don't have to do much and they get free food and stuff--Jail isn't great, but it isn't the end of the world to be there either...especially if you only have only a few years in there.

Are you saying misdeeds should warrant the "end of the world"? The point of punishment is to teach lessons - what lessons can be gained from eternal torture or execution?

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Why should we disobey God? He is the one who made us, after all. He gave us life. If it weren't for Him, we wouldn't be here or have the life we have. It seems arrogant to hate and disobey the hand that gave you your life. Then to not be punished for it only encourages everyone to continue to disobey. Whether we are six or ninety-nine years old, our brains and wisdom do not compare to how Wise God is. We are children. So, if we aren't punished for something, we continue to do it. Even punished, however, people still do awful things...it proves how childish is arrogant all of us really are.

Again, how is Hell, or any of God's supposedly administered "punishments", a real punishment? You compare God and humans to a parent and their children, and yet if any parent did anything close to the gravitas of some of God's supposed retribution when their child did something wrong, they'd be thrown in an asylum.

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Why should we not follow those commandments? God is the one who made us, after all. He gave us life. If it weren't for Him, we wouldn't be here or have the life we have. It seems arrogant to lash and disobey the hand that gave you your life.

To me it seems arrogant to imply that something is the case just because "God says so", especially in the face of little evidence to believe that he "gave us life" at all.

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Brianna Marie:

God didn't make people commit sin. He doesn't need to apologize for anything. It's humans who commit the acts.

So I take it you don't believe in original sin?

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This reference to the Flood can be checked off the list by two things: 1. No human is innocent, we have all fallen to wickedness, even children. 2. "Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Genesis 6:5).

Ergo the near-total annihilation of living things was both necessary and ethical?

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How hard is it to follow and love God and Jesus?

If you're a Muslim in Saudi Arabia, or a Hindu in India, or a member of an indigenous tribe miles away from any possible knowledge of Christianity, it's pretty hard. And furthermore, if as a person you're geared towards believing in things based upon evidence and reason, or you're born with something like, say, homosexuality, it's similarly difficult.

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I really hope you aren't suggesting we shouldn't have free will. You want God to put us in a box and have no choices for ourselves?

That's something of a false dichotomy. I don't think CallusedSilk was implying that such an extreme would be ideal just because she admonished the idea of the other.

Imagine this: a man approaches a woman, beats her and rapes her. What would be the better option in this situation? Allowing the assault to take place, thus sparing the free will of the attacker (the evil party)? Or stopping the assault from taking place, thus sparing the free will of the victim (the innocent party)? Whether God intervenes or not, one person's free will is going to be affected or compromised in some way. So, bearing that in mind, God can either act in his supposed good nature by intervening, or act evilly by, well, not acting at all. Which would a benevolent being choose? And if that's not convincing enough, let's take one of the most awful things that's ever happened: the Holocaust. What was more important to God then - the free will of Hitler and those who supported him to fulfil his wishes, or the free will of over 10,000,000 people not to be tortured and killed for their religion, race, sexuality or ability?

And if the Bible tells us anything, it surely tells us that God isn't always that bothered about people's free will anyway. According to the Bible, he intervened a hell of a lot a couple of thousand years ago, performing miracles and supposedly delivering justice.

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1. God did not create evil. Satan did.

Who created Satan?

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God is such a wonderful, Holy being that no one can comprehend the greatness of Him.

If you're incapable of comprehending his greatness, on what grounds can you make any affirmative statements about it?

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The culture was 150% different from today. Back then, God was known to everyone. There was no need for this faith thing because He talked and made himself very evidently known to everyone. So, it would definitely be arrogant to do wicked things when the creator has made himself so obviously known to everyone and has shown what wicked is and how it should not be done.

In what way is homosexuality wicked? Or women talking in church?

Also, why did he suddenly stop "making himself known to everyone" just after the time period in which the Bible was written? That seems all too coincidental to me.

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If we want to have sex with multiple people we can, [...] but that doesn't mean there are zero consequences.

What are the consequences of having sex with multiple people, and why?

@ Alex; periphery.
One of your questions was who created Satan? Not God, God created Angels whom one of which was named Lucifer. One day Lucifer decided he didn't want to be God's servant anymore, he wanted to be his own ruler. So God said fine you can do that but you can't live with me anymore because you're evil and you won't turn other people away from me evil, so he kicked him out of heaven. So Satan created himself, God did not create Satan.

Another one of your questions was what are the consequences of having sex with multiple people in line? The consequences are that you aren't loyal to anyone and letting anyone you have sexual feelings for see you and your body. God created sex as a gift to mandkind so that a man and woman could have it together when they were married.
You can't just have sex whenever and with whoever and not expect there to be consequences of some sort. Whatif you get STDs? What if you get pregnant? What if hat person was using your for your body and could care less about you as a person? What if they video taped it and post it on the Internet or show it to friends?
Sex is not the most important thing in the world and if that's what someone thinks, there're going to have a very sad, very unhappy, very unsatisfied life. And nobody wants that for anybody, not God, not me not anyone.

January Rose:

@ Alex; periphery.
One of your questions was who created Satan? Not God, God created Angels whom one of which was named Lucifer. One day Lucifer decided he didn't want to be God's servant anymore, he wanted to be his own ruler. So God said fine you can do that but you can't live with me anymore because you're evil and you won't turn other people away from me evil, so he kicked him out of heaven. So Satan created himself, God did not create Satan.

Did God not know when he created Lucifer that that would be his choice?

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Another one of your questions was what are the consequences of having sex with multiple people in line? The consequences are that you aren't loyal to anyone...

That's not necessarily true. Relationships end for various reasons and people find new ones but it doesn't automatically mean they were not loyal to their partner at the time.

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You can't just have sex whenever and with whoever and not expect there to be consequences of some sort. What if you get STDs? What if you get pregnant?

This is why people use contraception. But it's not as if unwanted pregnancies or even STDs don't come about in devoted marriages. A person can be highly promiscuous and never have any of these things happen.

But either way, I thought Brianna was talking about consequences in the sense of retribution as opposed to earthly consequences.

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Sex is not the most important thing in the world and if that's what someone thinks, there're going to have a very sad, very unhappy, very unsatisfied life. And nobody wants that for anybody, not God, not me not anyone.

If it's not the most important thing in the world, why the need for doctrine to police it as if it is?

@ svefngengar
Ok you got me really angry when someone said god didn't create evil luciiefer did and then you said 'who created luciefer?',

First thing first got created lucifier, secondly you can't blame god for lucierer being evil, its like blaming a rapist mom for her son being a rapist.

I believe.

Maleficent A:

First thing first god created lucifer, secondly you can't blame god for lucifer being evil, its like blaming a rapist mom for her son being a rapist.

The difference between God and the mother of a rapist is that God is purported to be all-knowing and all-powerful. If God is all-knowing he is well aware of the choices that people (or angels) are going to make, and if he's all-powerful he's surely equipped to intervene.

Not only that, but judging by the documented instances of God demonstrating rather evil and capricious behaviours, who's to say that he wouldn't be to blame for anyone else getting the "wrong idea", especially if humans are expected to look to him as an example?

T@ svefn-gengar
Ok let's look at it differently, yes maybe god did know that one of his angels would turn against him but if that angel didn't turn evil there would be no hell. What happens to sinners when they die If there isn't any hell? Would heaven be like earth, where they are good people and bad people? Everything happens for a reason with god he doesn't do things for fun, there is a straight and easy path to hell, but the road to heaven is tricky and hard but god is always there with you.

God gave his only son up for us people.

But if you don't believe in god can you just answer this one simple question, I have asked non believers before but they could not answer me, but you seem to have a answer for everything,

The bible was written many, many, many years ago, how did they know that there was going to be wars? Nations fighting against nations? Earthquakes? Hunger? That sin would be more common in the last days?, how can something that was written a VERY long time ago possible predict the future?

Maleficent A:

But if that angel didn't turn evil there would be no hell. What happens to sinners when they die If there isn't any hell?

I'm sure God could've used his unlimited power to think of some way of delivering justice without needing to create Hell, preferably one that doesn't involve eternal torture, misery, suffering...

Maleficent A:

The bible was written many, many, many years ago, how did they know that there was going to be wars? Nations fighting against nations? Earthquakes? Hunger? That sin would be more common in the last days?, how can something that was written a VERY long time ago possible predict the future?

The Bible was written in the last 2000 years, which, considering how long there have been humans, is a comparatively short time. War, hunger and natural disasters were nothing new at the time of the Bible's writing and compilation, so to predict that they would happen in the future isn't to make a grand prediction against the odds. And unless I'm mistaken, your premise relies on the idea of the end times being nigh as we speak, which no one has any way of even beginning to attempt to prove. As for sinning, well, again, if you draw up a big list of behaviours that have been observed in humans for ages and predict that it'll continue to happen, it's not exactly going out on a limb. In fact I'm quite sceptical that it's happened any more than it did in Biblical times, save of course for the obvious difference in population.

You have very little faith in god my friend, and I hope that on day you will realize that there is a god and there is also satin. Sometimes we question him but we should always know he knows what's best for us. One day god will take his church away and then were we go from there is up to him. In gods eyes lying is just as bad as murder, because all sins are the same. Hell is very much real and I'm sorry to say those who choose not to believe will spend eternity there, where as those who believe and love their god will live in the kingdom of heaven.

God works in mysterious ways.

Maleficent A:

You have very little faith in god my friend.

I actually have none at all, as of about six or seven years ago. Faith is believing without evidence, and if I'm provided with enough evidence to allay my doubts, that's when I'll give credence to the idea of his existence. But even then I'd be slightly sceptical of the idea that on top of that he's the personification of love and goodness.

Maleficent A:

In gods eyes lying is just as bad as murder, because all sins are the same.

Then God has a bizarre moral compass.

Maleficent A:

Hell is very much real and I'm sorry to say those who choose not to believe will spend eternity there, where as those who believe and love their god will live in the kingdom of heaven.

It's not that I choose not to believe, it's that I can't bring myself to. I already did believe until the age of about 15 or 16, because I'd been brought up to believe that it was true full stop, but since then I discovered critical thinking and the possibility of questioning beliefs. And besides, the idea that we should "choose" to believe either way is fallacious from the other point of view, as surely someone who "chooses" to believe in God so that they get to Heaven aren't really being honest. And again, seeing as God is supposed to be all-knowing, he can surely tell apart the people who do believe in him and the people who "chose" to believe in him based on the concept of their eternal suffering if they didn't.

And what about the people who were born in Muslim countries, for example, or tribes miles away from any concept of Christianity? Are they going to burn in Hell just by virtue of having been born in a country where Christianity isn't practised, or worse, where it's frowned upon? Not only does the idea of God punishing people for not believing in him seem sinister at best, it's also deeply flawed on a moral level.

But anyway, we're getting vaguely off-topic; this thread is for discussing whether or not God (or any other gods) is real - and by extension the arguments for and against whether or not he is real - rather than his morality and whether or not people should believe in him, etc.

So, here are a couple of questions:
1) What evidence can you offer for God's existence?
2) What sets the Christian God (or the Abrahamic God) apart, in terms of credibility, from Thor or Zeus?

Brianna Marie:

God didn't make people commit sin. He doesn't need to apologize for anything. It's humans who commit the acts.

Okay, hear me out. I'm not Christian but my mom is. When I was younger she always used to tell me "God knows everything you're going to do before you do it". I Googled the phrase and didn't really come back with any concrete answer if this is what Christians believe or not. But if it is true... how does God not make people sin? If he already knows their entire life before they've even born, knows their every move, and since, according to the religion, he is our Creator, wouldn't you say he essentially has made people sin? He's the one who created us. He's the one who knows every second of our life before we do. (Again, assuming my mom's comment is even relevant to Christianity). Even if my mom was wrong, isn't he "Omniscient", so, he would still essentially know whether or not we're going to commit large scale sins? He's our Creator and knows all... so at the end of the day, it's kind of like our afterlife is considered to be predetermined?