Gay rights.

druscilla's miracles:

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Hmmm... then maybe my stepdad just got really really lucky during his 20+ years in the services.

I know it's like that in training and over in places like Iraq. I'm not sure about home bases.

druscilla's miracles:

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So the military shouldn't prevent men from being raped?

I agree the rape in the military is entirely too large of a problem, but damn.

I just edited my post because I realized my wording didn't express what I wanted it to.

Farce.:

I know it's like that in training and over in places like Iraq. I'm not sure about home bases.

Well, my stepdad went to Qatar twice a year (for seven years at least) and they had separations in the showers.

And group showers are awkward and embarrassing, like I said before. You have to press a button and get your three minutes of hot water and do you really want to waste that time checking out ass or getting clean?

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I don't think separate sleeping areas are necessary. Homophobia isn't an attractive quality to someone who is gay so why would they try to hook up with the homophobic guy?

Joining conversation. I apologize if this is unrelated, but it is in a way....

On the subject of homophobia in the military:

My uncle thought they should keep don't-ask-don't-tell because guys don't want to be sleeping next to gay men. Well, it's not like they're not there. Whether you know who they are or not, gay men and women are in the military, and they're your friends. What I'm not understanding is that... wouldn't you want to know who's gay then?

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Homophobia from men tends to come from the thought that every gay man wants to sleep with every man, period. Wants to hit on every guy, period. And it's not true.

I guess most people don't have a problem with them being there. The main problem would just be showering. I'm looking into service and that's my only problem. I have gay friends already. I'm not into PDA of any orientation and it's against the rules so that's not a problem.

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Maybe all the showers should have separators then. I mean, it doesn't cost that much to buy a shower curtain, does it?

druscilla's miracles:

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Homophobia from men tends to come from the thought that every gay man wants to sleep with every man, period. Wants to hit on every guy, period. And it's not true.

Exactly. My mom's a lesbian, and since she came out to her family, her brothers haven't been as homophobic, but when it comes to the military (which about four men from that side of the family were/are in), they get really defensive.

It makes me think though, imagine if every woman were paranoid that every man in the world's main goal in life was to rape her? Some people have legitimate reasons for this fear... and others are just being paranoid.

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They do shower separately, by the way.

phoenix;; after all:

It makes me think though, imagine if every woman were paranoid that every man in the world's main goal in life was to rape her? Some people have legitimate reasons for this fear... and others are just being paranoid.

1 in 3 women will be sexually assaulted. I don't think it's paranoia.

druscilla's miracles:

1 in 3 women will be sexually assaulted. I don't think it's paranoia.

Maybe I chose the wrong word.... I was just trying to get the point across that not everyone has an ulterior motive, and that whether you know it or not, gay people are there.

On a somewhat different subject... FBI.gov has a list of all registered sex offenders. Has anyone ever looked at it? I find it interesting....

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I think that would go on a thread other than gay rights...
Or maybe a new thread.

Since we're talking about the showers, I thought I'd share this video of Rep. Barney Frank answering it.

In it, he makes the very good point of the fact that gay men and straight men have been showering together since before DADT was even in effect.

I think the showering thing is interesting, because it does raise the question of why it's not okay for men and women of whatever orientation to shower together, as mentioned in the video. And I'm not going to be able to be too objective on this because the idea of being naked in front of anyone makes me want to vom pretty hardcore, but whatever.

I think the fear of sexualizing what should just be an exercise in hygiene is some of the reason behind the separation of the sexes — which does validate the concern of gay and lesbian people showering together, although that would necessarily lead to them showering alone (or, I don't know, one gay guy at a time showering with one lesbian. All very ridiculous and impractical ideas).

I think the major reason, however, is just the comfort of familiarity. (Oh, you have boobs? Yeah, me too. NBD). It's why we prefer to have doctors of the same sex. I think it's more cultural, really — even if you're gay, you're trained to believe that most people of the same sex as you aren't really interested in seeing you naked, and that people of the opposite sex always are.

...This is starting to feel really incoherent. I had a point, I swear.

I think the most important factor, though, is what Dru already mentioned: you have a limited amount of time to shower; you just want to get in and get out, not ogle the other people. Plus, what with vastly outstripping every other country in military spending, I think America can spring for some shower curtains. srsly.

phoenix;; after all:

My uncle thought they should keep don't-ask-don't-tell because guys don't want to be sleeping next to gay men. Well, it's not like they're not there. Whether you know who they are or not, gay men and women are in the military, and they're your friends. What I'm not understanding is that... wouldn't you want to know who's gay then?

Dru, I think what she's saying is that if a guy is worried about a gay guy sleeping near them wouldn't they want the gay guys to TELL them then, so they'd know who was gay instead of sleeping by some gay guy with out knowing or getting a heads up?

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Why do you need to know if the guy sleeping next to you is gay? If he's not ogling you, does it really matter?

druscilla's miracles:

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Why do you need to know if the guy sleeping next to you is gay? If he's not ogling you, does it really matter?

I don't think it matters at all, but the logic of DADT is kind of stupid really. *shrug* It's one thing if you don't want gays in the military, it's another if you have a problem with them near you and yet you don't want to know which ones are gay. Let's say that all gay guys really do wanna sleep with all stright dudes (which I know they don't), then wouldn't those straight guys want a warning if they can't completely get rid of them?

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Why? It's not changing shit. Guys ogle chicks all the time. Why does it matter?

Just my tidbit:

One of the main reasons I'm not joining the services is because I fear how I will be treated via showers/sleeping/etc.

Cassandra Mortmain:

I think the showering thing is interesting, because it does raise the question of why it's not okay for men and women of whatever orientation to shower together, as mentioned in the video.

A third of women in the military are raped. Do we really need to make it worse by having them shower together? I don't think there's any question.

druscilla's miracles:

A third of women in the military are raped. Do we really need to make it worse by having them shower together? I don't think there's any question.

But if rape is about dominance (and often about dominating an unattainable or 'pure' thing) then would it not help prevent it if women were seen as approachable?