Gun Control

Jewel Nicole:

Um, no? I'm defending the innocent... they aren't doing any harm, why should I just let them get killed or myself? I'm not going to. I will defend them and if that costs my life, so be it.

I s'pose some people would argue that's a little bit of a heroistic way of looking at things.

But bad people are people too. I mean, if they're nicking stuff they obviously need help.

And it makes you no better than they are.

The Doctor:

I s'pose some people would argue that's a little bit of a heroistic way of looking at things.

But bad people are people too. I mean, if they're nicking stuff they obviously need help.

And it makes you no better than they are.

So, it makes me a bad person because I defend my family and myself? Really? Well, if that's the case then I don't ever want to be good, to be honest. If I feel like my life's threatened or my family's life is threatened, I'm going to do something about it. What did we do to deserve to be threatened that way? Nothing. So, what, we have a house with things inside so that gives them the right to come in and threaten us because they want our valuables? I think not.

Jewel Nicole:

So, it makes me a bad person because I defend my family and myself? Really? Well, if that's the case then I don't ever want to be good, to be honest. If I feel like my life's threatened or my family's life is threatened, I'm going to do something about it. What did we do to deserve to be threatened that way? Nothing. So, what, we have a house with things inside so that gives them the right to come in and threaten us because they want our valuables? I think not.

Yes but the way I see it is, if someone does something shitty to you, what right is there for you to do something shitty back? It could spark a chain reaction that could go mental.

^We're not talking about revenge.

We're talking about defense. There's a HUGE difference.

Jewel Nicole:

^We're not talking about revenge.

We're talking about defense. There's a HUGE difference.

Depends on what you call reasonable amount of defense, really.

And if the guy who tries to steal shit has a family and they understandably get annoyed and decide to make the whole situation a lot more worse, possibly putting a lot more pressure onto you and putting the rest of your family in danger...that's were revenge comes in.

But hey, I'm pretty paranoid about shit like that.

^That's where it becomes illegal and against the law.

A guy breaks into my house, threatens my family & me, I shoot him and he winds up dead. Under the law, it's justified.

His family seeks revenge comes in and puts my family or me in danger, that's illegal. They're going to wind up in jail.

I'm not paranoid about those things. It's not even about taking chances it's about defending the innocent.

^ Personally, I have a hard time even considering people innocent or guilty.

But you seem very optimistic in the uphold of law and order and that it is always justified.

^Because it is the law here in the state of Texas. If it wasn't a law, I wouldn't defend my opinion if it wasn't.

However, even if it is a law some people think it's not morally correct. Which is basically my argument excluding the whole "under the law it's right".

I understand not wanting to kill someone. Personally, I wouldn't ever be able to shoot someone, but at the same time, I completely understand the idea of just killing someone if they break into your house and threaten your family.

But to everyone saying that they think it's wrong to defend yourself in such a violent manner, what about the people who kill someone trying to commit mass murder and save hundreds of lives in the process?

Jewel Nicole:

His family seeks revenge comes in and puts my family or me in danger, that's illegal. They're going to wind up in jail.

And are they going to wind up in jail before or after they murder a member of your family in revenge?

The fact that it's "illegal" doesn't matter. People kill in revenge all the time despite it's illegality. The point that has been made was that if you kill the person for coming into your house and their family comes after yours in revenge, you're putting your family in danger. Meaning in that scenario it's very likely one of your family would be murdered before any legal action is taken and they're thrown in jail.

Personally, I'd just give the person whatever they wanted in my home so they could just leave me and my family's lives alone. At least stuff is replaceable. Lives aren't. Which is why I don't have the inclination to mess with anyone else's.

^But what if it was your life being messed with? Sure, someone breaks into your house, and there's a chance they'll just take something and leave, or get out of there asap when they realize people are home.

But what about the people who are there to hurt you? Someone once broke into my cousin's house, and despite the fact that my relative and her boyfriend posed no threat, told the thieves to take whatever they wanted, and begged them to not hurt them, my cousin was raped and her boyfriend was killed.

If things were different, and they had a gun and shot those people who came into their house, I wouldn't think them horrible for messing with someone else's life. Those people decided to kill and rape. My family didn't decide to go be a victim.

veronika:

And are they going to wind up in jail before or after they murder a member of your family in revenge?

The fact that it's "illegal" doesn't matter. People kill in revenge all the time despite it's illegality. The point that has been made was that if you kill the person for coming into your house and their family comes after yours in revenge, you're putting your family in danger. Meaning in that scenario it's very likely one of your family would be murdered before any legal action is taken and they're thrown in jail.

Personally, I'd just give the person whatever they wanted in my home so they could just leave me and my family's lives alone. At least stuff is replaceable. Lives aren't. Which is why I don't have the inclination to mess with anyone else's.

Well aside from what Calico Jack said, what if you later report the thief (or you wouldn't report it either) and the guy ends up in jail, after which his family/buddies/gang decides it's your fault and again, you're in danger? It ends up pretty much on the same place.

I think that this entire assumption thing needs to be dropped, because it's not really easy to be hypothetical about it. Sure in specific cases you could assume that there will some backfire or revenge but I don't think it's a general rule.

veronika:

And are they going to wind up in jail before or after they murder a member of your family in revenge?

The fact that it's "illegal" doesn't matter. People kill in revenge all the time despite it's illegality. The point that has been made was that if you kill the person for coming into your house and their family comes after yours in revenge, you're putting your family in danger. Meaning in that scenario it's very likely one of your family would be murdered before any legal action is taken and they're thrown in jail.

Personally, I'd just give the person whatever they wanted in my home so they could just leave me and my family's lives alone. At least stuff is replaceable. Lives aren't. Which is why I don't have the inclination to mess with anyone else's.

So, what do you suggest? Do you suggest that I sit there and allow them to hurt my family and me? Nope. I don't think so. I'm not going to do that, like I've said numerous times before I will protect them to the best of my capability.

^That's the point I'm trying to make. (Both posters above me.)

^And that's fine... I just disagree. Where I come from in Australia, you aren't really allowed to keep hand guns as one can in America - we don't have anything like a "right to bear arms". I grew up with the impression that it is the household's responsibility to make their home criminal-proof. As much as is possible for them.

Of course most houses are not 100 per cent criminal proof, but hey - we've never had a break in, even though our street has a bad reputation for break ins and and car theft and the like.

I've never had the opinion instilled in me that guns are necessary in any home. Even if you do kill the criminal by a gun shot, I don't see how that makes the situation any better or any easier to deal with. Killing someone for most people is likely to come with a lot of emotional trauma, even if the person killed was trespassing and breaking in.

I don't think shooting someone is as easy as people are making out to be. "Oh yeah, if a crim breaks in I'll just shoot 'em. Easy peasy." I don't think it is for most people when faced with it. But that is just my personal opinion. Feel free to be gun-happy.

Jewel Nicole:

So, what do you suggest? Do you suggest that I sit there and allow them to hurt my family and me? Nope. I don't think so. I'm not going to do that, like I've said numerous times before I will protect them to the best of my capability.

^That's the point I'm trying to make. (Both posters above me.)

There are many measures that you can take to ensure that your house will not be broken into while you're there (most robberies happen when the owner is not home, anyway), but from buying a security system to buying a gun with the sole intention of murdering somebody there's a huge step. Everybody wants to protect their loved ones, but not everybody is willing to go as far in terms of degradation of human condition as you are. I, for example, would never commit murder for my family.

^ Well, I think it's important to keep in mind that shooting someone is also a last resort effort by most people. Most people in the States do try to keep their homes secure. Most people in the States would call the police if someone broke into their home.

People in the States don't just buy a gun thinking they're going to murder someone. They don't buy a gun, and use it as their only means of a security system.

I, for one, would not want to ever shoot somebody. But I also would not want my family killed. Veronica mentions the trauma associated with killing someone. If you kill someone, yeah, there's going to be trauma. If someone kills your family, there's still going to be trauma. The only way you won't feel any trauma is if you die, and I'm not okay with dying at the hands of some criminal.

Just because you have a gun doesn't mean you have to commit murder, either. If you shoot someone in the knee cap they probably aren't going to die. They will most likely just go down, not do any more damage or cause a big threat, you could escape to a safe place and wait for the police to get there.

If someone was robbing my house I wouldn't shoot them in the head. More like in the foot or leg. Unless they had a gun. And if they were pointing that gun at my daughter, damn right I'd take a shot. Even if it meant going to jail, I would protect my daughter. And if she was getting raped... I wouldn't just sit there and be like, "that's all he wants hunny. Just listen to him and he'll be gone soon when he gets what he wants." Because my daughter shouldn't have to take it because I'm too scared to shoot. I'd defend her no matter what. And I think it'd be sick and inhumane NOT to do anything because you didn't want to kill someone. I'd rather kill a sicko than have my daughter live with that the rest of her life.

^Whoah whoah whoah. How do you begin to equate "I wouldn't shoot a burglar" to "I'd watch a burglar rape a family member and tell them it's okay"? That's an absolutely insane non-parallel to draw.

Not defending your family with a lethal weapon is not the same as not defending your family at all. There's an amazing difference between the two. I'd die to defend the people I care about. I just wouldn't kill for them if I could help it. Certainly wouldn't use lethal force as the first port of call.

In the same way, most burglars tend to not want to cause physical harm to people; they just want your possessions. You may be broken into by a person who does wish active harm on you or your family, but that would be a grave misfortune more than a common occurrence. A fair few of my friends have been burgled in the past few months, and every time the thieves have simply legged it as soon as they realised someone else was awake in the block.

Also, just to ask; can you aim a gun? Well enough to shoot a burglar in the kneecap of all tiny places, and not hit your family member by accident?

kafka.:

If no one's home, then I'm not going to worry about shooting them, because, obviously, I'm not there so I wouldn't know about it. However, if I'm home with my family, it's only human to feel immediately threatened and it's only human (in my opinion) to want to protect yourself and your family. I would be willing to kill for my loved ones. I would much rather have the criminal die then my family or myself, considering we didn't do anything wrong and weren't threatening anyone. (And under the law here, I have the right to.)

Calico Jack:

Silver.:

Exactly. I'm not claiming to want to kill anyone. No, that's not the case at all, I don't have a killer instinct in me that thrives to for violence, but if need be and I'm defending my family and myself, then yes, I'll do it.

Sheepy:

Not defending your family with a lethal weapon is not the same as not defending your family at all. There's an amazing difference between the two. I'd die to defend the people I care about. I just wouldn't kill for them if I could help it. Certainly wouldn't use lethal force as the first port of call.

So, how do we defend them? With a punch? Attack them to the floor? They punch back, they're likely to fight back, right? What then? I'm not going to have a fist fight with them when I could have just shot them and they'd be down.

Sheepy:

In the same way, most burglars tend to not want to cause physical harm to people; they just want your possessions. You may be broken into by a person who does wish active harm on you or your family, but that would be a grave misfortune more than a common occurrence. A fair few of my friends have been burgled in the past few months, and every time the thieves have simply legged it as soon as they realised someone else was awake in the block.

But what if someone's home? Do you think once we've seen them red handed they are just going to throw their hands up and say "Oops, busted, I'm sorry, I just wanted your stuff, I'll be on my way now, have a good night."? Do you think that's going to happen? No. They will more than likely get physical because they don't want to get caught. That's why they're there in the first place because they have the mentality that they won't get caught.

Sheepy:

Also, just to ask; can you aim a gun? Well enough to shoot a burglar in the kneecap of all tiny places, and not hit your family member by accident?

Yes, I can aim a gun. My grandparents had me practice at a shooting range specifically for these reasons. However, even if I had no past experience I'd still do it in a heartbeat. I can tell the difference between two people.

Quote

how do we defend them? With a punch? Attack them to the floor? They punch back, they're likely to fight back, right?

...and if you shoot them and they turn out to be armed, they're likely to shoot back, right? I don't see your point on this one.

Quote

Do you think that's going to happen? No. They will more than likely get physical because they don't want to get caught. That's why they're there in the first place because they have the mentality that they won't get caught.

Do you think that's going to happen? Evidently not.
Do I think it's likely to happen? Actually, yes.
Hey, maybe I'm biased. Three of my friends have been burgled recently. They all walked in on the burglars while they were stealing things. The thieves saw them, and ran away. No such stabbing or shooting or punching...or harm in any way; two out of the three times they even left the stuff they were nicking in an effort to get out faster. So, do I think a burglar may just want to get the hell out of dodge if the unoccupied house happens to be occupied? From my recent experience, absolutely. But maybe your experience has been different, and has led you to feel like owning a gun is a necessary defence.