Proposed (and Approved) Mosque at Ground Zero in NYC

Dirty Byrd:

Although I do agree that it's no different than a synogague or a church and they have a right to build it, I think they can atleast try to be respectful of how people could feel.

They had nothing to do with 9/11 though. People who disagree with the mosque being built are being prejudiced for the wrong reasons. They're accusing the wrong people, and taking the wrong actions. Muslims shouldn't have to bend to the will of people who wrongfully hate them.

fightoffyourdemons.:

They had nothing to do with 9/11 though. People who disagree with the mosque being built are being prejudiced for the wrong reasons. They're accusing the wrong people, and taking the wrong actions. Muslims shouldn't have to bend to the will of people who wrongfully hate them.

Ya but even though the people don't have the right to be prejudice they are and if the Muslims want they can just say "well fuck off it wasn't us" or they can try to do something to get people less mad at them. Ignoring it doesn't seem right to me.

Dirty Byrd:

Ya but even though the people don't have the right to be prejudice they are and if the Muslims want they can just say "well fuck off it wasn't us" or they can try to do something to get people less mad at them. Ignoring it doesn't seem right to me.

And Muslims have the right to build this mosque. They're not ignoring it, they're moving forward. The rest of America is standing still because they haven't accepted it yet. Acceptance is the first step to recovery. We can't hold a grudge forever, and Muslims are trying to help us move forward with this mosque.

Dirty Byrd:

Although I do agree that it's no different than a synogague or a church and they have a right to build it, I think they can atleast try to be respectful of how people could feel.

But how are they not being respectful? Quote me an article where any Muslim (or non-Muslim) linked with building the Mosque / centre is being blatantly disrespectful in regards to September 11?

I think it's been wildly sensationalised by the media, which is why people are taking things out of proportion and claiming it's disrespectful / rude / insensitive. It's not the people building the building that are being irrational and insensitive. If anyone is, it's the people aggressively against it that are behaving like that.

If it was on ground zero I might feel differently. But it's two blocks away. They're not being disrespectful at all.

fightoffyourdemons.:

And Muslims have the right to build this mosque. They're not ignoring it, they're moving forward. The rest of America is standing still because they haven't accepted it yet. Acceptance is the first step to recovery. We can't hold a grudge forever, and Muslims are trying to help us move forward with this mosque.

I understand, I just think that maybe they shouldn't more foreward so drastically, they should let other people heal a little more.

Dirty Byrd:

I understand, I just think that maybe they shouldn't more foreward so drastically, they should let other people heal a little more.

It's been 9 years...I think that's plenty of time.

fightoffyourdemons.:

It's been 9 years...I think that's plenty of time.

Wow, it doesn't seem like it's been that long.
I think that even though 9 years is a completely reasonable amount of time, if people are still upset and there's still so much tension, I don't think this is a very good time to be doing what they're doing.

Dirty Byrd:

Wow, it doesn't seem like it's been that long.
I think that even though 9 years is a completely reasonable amount of time, if people are still upset and there's still so much tension, I don't think this is a very good time to be doing what they're doing.

People are always going to have bad memories or feelings when they come to 9/11. I wouldn't be surprised if those feelings never end. That doesn't mean that we should forever with hold this right from Muslims because a few people feel that way. This could be the first step to those Americans acceptance of 9/11, and realization that the Muslims that are building this mosque had nothing to do with 9/11 whatsoever.

I changed my mind.

^ Any reason why? I'm just curious.

fightoffyourdemons.:

It's been 9 years...I think that's plenty of time.

Are nazi's gone? (Sorry to invoke Godwin's law, AGAIN). What about racial tensions between descendants of black slaves, and anyone white? Racial tensions between Native Americans, and anyone white? Religious tension between anyone of any religion that happens to be different?

To use an example, someone mentioned the KKK earlier. They are responsible for a lot of racism towards white people from african americans. The last extreme, highly publicised act by the KKK( a lynching ) was almost 30 years ago. You'd think that plenty of time to get over it, right? [/sarcasm]

What about the japanese? After pearl harbour, if you looked even vaguely asian, you were hated. People born in the US, legal US citizens that had lived there their entire life, were put in camps, and treated like less than humans. How long did it take for that hatred to dissipate, on both sides?

You can't arbitrarily say "Oh, it's been nine years, get over it! Gosh, you're such bigots for still being upset about it."

Let me know when you think it's an acceptable time for Iraq, afghanistan and the rest of the middle east to get over the (and this is the LOWEST estimate) 95,000 civilians who've died in the war. I wonder if they'll still be okay with having the US embassy in their country? Or any american?

Or the jewish people, should they be over the holocaust?

Oo, what about people in Hiroshima? They all have genetic sicknesses, but they should get over it, I mean, it was more than 50 years ago!

lovecraft:

You can't arbitrarily say "Oh, it's been nine years, get over it! Gosh, you're such bigots for still being upset about it."

People aren't bigots for being upset over 9/11. People are bigots for expressing hatred towards people who had nothing to do with 9/11 purely on the basis of difference in religion and skin tone.

lovecraft:

Oo, what about people in Hiroshima? They all have genetic sicknesses, but they should get over it, I mean, it was more than 50 years ago!

I have a friend from Hiroshima, and if she hates all Americans for what they did to her city and her people, then she's kept it a secret. Then again, maybe she's just logical enough to realise that blaming all Americans for dropping bombs on Hiroshima is about as clever as blaming all Muslims for bombing the Twin Towers. Oh wait. That happened, didn't it?

I don't exactly think nine years is enough time to 'get over' 9/11. But that doesn't justify the obvious discrimination of Muslims who had nothing to do with the attack.

I watched the NBC Nightly News today and some church (I don't remember where) is having a 'Burn A Koran' Day. I wanted to throw my shoe at the television.

lovecraft:

Are nazi's gone? (Sorry to invoke Godwin's law, AGAIN). What about racial tensions between descendants of black slaves, and anyone white? Racial tensions between Native Americans, and anyone white? Religious tension between anyone of any religion that happens to be different?

For the most part, Nazis and people in favor of slave trading are gone from most of the world. There are still a few countries where they exist, I'm sure, but that doesn't mean America (one of the biggest modern countries in the world) has to stoop below the foundations they were built on because we're at war with terrorism. The thing that keeps Americans together is the Constitution we were built on. If we start disregarding that now, where the hell are we headed?

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To use an example, someone mentioned the KKK earlier. They are responsible for a lot of racism towards white people from african americans. The last extreme, highly publicised act by the KKK( a lynching ) was almost 30 years ago. You'd think that plenty of time to get over it, right? [/sarcasm]

Yes, but this country has a freedom of speech and there are laws in place to protect people from things like what the KKK are for. Muslim Americans are not Al Qaeda. Preventing this mosque from being built is ridiculous. If you want to think of them as Muslims, go ahead. But they're Americans as well. And with that title they get the same rights as everyone else who lives in this country.

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What about the japanese? After pearl harbour, if you looked even vaguely asian, you were hated. People born in the US, legal US citizens that had lived there their entire life, were put in camps, and treated like less than humans. How long did it take for that hatred to dissipate, on both sides?

We actually have good relations with the Japanese despite Pearl Harbor. Many Japanese visit the site on the day it happened, and a few American veterans went to Japan a while back to plant a few trees in rememberance of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

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You can't arbitrarily say "Oh, it's been nine years, get over it! Gosh, you're such bigots for still being upset about it."

I'm not saying you're a bigot for being upset about it. You have freedom of speech just as much as I do. That doesn't mean I have to agree with you. And those rights don't include suppressing others simply because of their religion. Everyone has a freedom to be whatever religion they choose to be. And they have a right to private property. You can't take rights away from other people. Part of being an American is that we're all equal, and we all have those same rights. No one has less simply because they are Muslim.

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Let me know when you think it's an acceptable time for Iraq, afghanistan and the rest of the middle east to get over the (and this is the LOWEST estimate) 95,000 civilians who've died in the war. I wonder if they'll still be okay with having the US embassy in their country? Or any american?

Or the jewish people, should they be over the holocaust?

Oo, what about people in Hiroshima? They all have genetic sicknesses, but they should get over it, I mean, it was more than 50 years ago!

As far as I'm aware, most Jewish people don't hold grudges against Germans because of the Holocaust. They might have bad feelings about present day Nazis, but other than that they accept that it happened and they have memorials and all, but they accept that it's happened and they can't change that it did, and they're moving on.

As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, Hiroshima (or Nagasaki) has many American companies and symbols in the town. And Japan and the US have very good relations now. Veterans from Pearl Harbor on both sides, visit the site of it everyday. And Americans have been to Japan and it's been resolved.

I remember a quote about grudges - "Holding grudges is like drinking posion and expecting someone else to die". It means that grudges hurt the people holding them more than the people who they're held against. Right now, some Americans are holding grudges against Muslims because of 9/11. Muslims are not the people we should be holding grudges against. Muslims in general had nothing to do with 9/11. Muslim Americans are Americans too. If they want to build this mosque, they have a right to build it. They have just the same rights as people who want to build a church or a synogague, or a church to the FSM. We can't tell them no because a few odd terrorists crashed a plane into the Twin Towers 9 years ago. If we hold grudges against them and treat them differently we're showing terrorists that we're not better than what they think we are - ignorant and full of hate. If you want to voice your opinion against this mosque, it's your right. But it is not your right to stop the building of this mosque simply because a few Americans have a bad feeling about Muslims.

England's Dreaming:

I don't exactly think nine years is enough time to 'get over' 9/11. But that doesn't justify the obvious discrimination of Muslims who had nothing to do with the attack.

I watched the NBC Nightly News today and some church (I don't remember where) is having a 'Burn A Koran' Day. I wanted to throw my shoe at the television.

It might not be enough time to get over, but it's sure as hell enough time to start moving forward or at least try to accept what's happened. Americans are just at a stand still right now. They're acting like all Muslims are the enemy when they're really not. If they want an enemy, go for Al Qeada and not the Muslim community. We shouldn't be holding rallies to take away granted rights for anyone who's American. People have a right to build what they want on private property. People have a right to freedom of religion without persecution. And what are Americans doing? Going back on the foundations our country was built on because they want to spread some hate on people that didn't even do anything.

Well... when I say I changed my mind I had posted something nasty and awful about every other problem thats happened in history that people just need to 'get over.'

But theres no point because I realize that I'm not even mad that they're building something. I'm mad at the man himself for what he said after the towers fell. I really don't care about the building at all. The guy funding it, I'm all for disliking him.



The building is just another building. It's like a YMCA.... that's a Christian organization, but I do worry when you say 'Islamic Themed' because you can go to a YMCA and not know its a Christian organization.... I wish we knew more about what this building WILL and WILL NOT be...

It was in somewhat bad taste to bring 9/11 up though... Not horribly taboo...just in bad taste... Like bringing up someone's dead grandmother... Sure, I didn't kill her, but I probably shouldn't have brought her up because now the dead grandmother's death is going to be either trivialized or used to prove an entire religion psychotic.

And I'm not just talking about the people building it. I'm talking about everyone who brought it up about the building... Though the guy who had been recorded saying we deserved it probably should have kept his mouth shut....


I hope that comparison came out right...

JessiBunny:

It was in somewhat bad taste to bring 9/11 up though... Not horribly taboo...just in bad taste... Like bringing up someone's dead grandmother... Sure, I didn't kill her, but I probably shouldn't have brought her up because now the dead grandmother's death is going to be either trivialized or used to prove an entire religion psychotic.

And I'm not just talking about the people building it. I'm talking about everyone who brought it up about the building... Though the guy who had been recorded saying we deserved it probably should have kept his mouth shut....

I'm struggling to figure out why exactly it's so "distasteful" to "bring up" September 11? It's a tragic event in American, and world, history. It's a historical event. So we should just keep our mouths shut about September 11 in case some people may find it offensive? Just sweep it under the rug?

If someone was sending up the victims of September 11 and satirising the whole deal, I can see why some may find that in poor taste. But I fail to see what is so utterly and apparently devastatingly bad taste about anything anyone's said about the mosque.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZpT2Muxoo0
I seriously suggest everyone watches the above link. The video's a little over 12 minutes but it is definitely worth it. The guy makes many many good points.

There was already a "Ground-Zero Mosque" - on the 17th floor of the WTC.

Once again.
They can build a mosque.
They can build it there, if they really want to.
But building it to 'make amends' for 9/11 is tasteless, offensive, and pointless.

Secondly, it wasn't a ground zero mosque, it was a prayer room, in a building that happened to be the WTC.

Third, anyone else find it ironic that this is being tacitly approved by the city(Supported by politicians, not that the government has any say in the situation), but the rebuilding of a greek orthodox church that was destroyed on 9/11 wasn't? And the Port Authority IS responsible for the rebuilding of all those buildings. I suppose because it isn't controversial, it's unimportant.
From the article: "On Sunday, demonstrators for and against the mosque faced off across police barricades at ground zero." That kind of makes me feel sick inside. Way to be disrespectful.

i think some people don't understand where the anger in this proposal is coming from. it isn't anger at the fact there is to be a mosque built, but rather where it is going to be. it's all well and good that american's should respect muslims right to worship in a mosque since muslims also died during 9/11, but i think the muslim community should show american's more understanding and not propose the building of a mosque what like, 2 streets away from where muslim extremeists murdered thousands
i know this is all agreeing with you lovecraft haha