Proposed (and Approved) Mosque at Ground Zero in NYC

lovecraft:

And yes, a MODERN, but still violent, still causing wars, still part of wars, still containing extremists who will do just about anything to further their cause, religion, is not something I want to be part of US culture. Ever.

Sounds like Christianity to me.

There are extremists in EVERYTHING. Are you against those?

lovecraft:

"And how can you say you're religiously tolerant and then go ahead and make generalizations about Muslims? They're not all out to kill you."

Never said I was religiously tolerant. In point of fact, I'm religiously intolerant. The US is supposed to be religiously tolerant, but they take it too far at times, the mosque being built near ground zero an excellent example of this.

And yes, a MODERN, but still violent, still causing wars, still part of wars, still containing extremists who will do just about anything to further their cause, religion, is not something I want to be part of US culture. Ever.

There are also fundamentalist Christians who will do anything to further their religion, why do you treat Muslims differently?

But oh well, you've said you're religiously intolerant, so I guess what we say won't make a difference.

Yup. I don't particularily like religions of any sort. They create ill-feeling between people for next to no reason, and these escalate in places where people are cramped together and have a particularly strong zeal for their religion.

I suppose you mean fundamentalist christians who, for example, kill abortion doctors? They don't act like christians. Muslims actively trying to convert through slander, blackmail, and threats, are supposedly good Muslims.

lovecraft:

"And how can you say you're religiously tolerant and then go ahead and make generalizations about Muslims? They're not all out to kill you."

Never said I was religiously tolerant. In point of fact, I'm religiously intolerant. The US is supposed to be religiously tolerant, but they take it too far at times, the mosque being built near ground zero an excellent example of this.

And yes, a MODERN, but still violent, still causing wars, still part of wars, still containing extremists who will do just about anything to further their cause, religion, is not something I want to be part of US culture. Ever.

Then get rid of your Christians and Jews too.

Simples.

Christians in Ireland have been killing each other in the name of a petty handful of differences. The Troubles in Ireland are not really over. The IRA may "officially" be disbanded but offshoots from it are still killing people. UDA and UVF people are still causing mayhem.

The Jewish people are oppressing an entire nation in a neverending cyle of terrorists and extremists on both sides, sanctions and hellish antics.

You cannot single out Muslims since they're the terrorist flavour of the decade.

lovecraft:

Yup. I don't particularily like religions of any sort. They create ill-feeling between people for next to no reason, and these escalate in places where people are cramped together and have a particularly strong zeal for their religion.

You said you were a Christian, didn't you? And being religiously tolerant doesn't mean you particularly like religion. It means you tolerate different beliefs. Basically, it's religious intolerance what causes ill-feeling between people.

To whoever asked about Muslims having to convert people, this is from wikipedia.

"According to Islamic laws, non-Muslims in Islamic Lands should be subdued and be treated like Dhimmis, or second class citizens. They should be coerced and intimidated to convert to Islam, through special humiliating taxes like Jizya imposed on them. This has been happening in the Islamic World since the last 1400 years. While Muslims demand equal rights in non-Muslim countries, non-Muslims are systematically persecuted, terrorized and ethnically cleansed from Islamic Lands. With the recent rise of Muslim populations in the traditionally Christian/Secular West, also comes the noticeable rise of Islamic violence and terrorist activities aimed towards the non-Muslims."

The convert/kill/make a slave of was heard from someone else, and shouldn't have been repeated. My apologies for being dramatic.

lovecraft:

I suppose you mean fundamentalist christians who, for example, kill abortion doctors? They don't act like christians. Muslims actively trying to convert through slander, blackmail, and threats, are supposedly good Muslims.

How do you know what a supposedly good Muslim is like? And those fundamentalist Christians probably say that what they do IS being a good Christian, so it's all subjective.

Do you know, I mean personally know, people who are Muslim? Not all of them are people who kill and hurt. Some actually came here to be able to practice their religion. Because the U.S is a religiously tolerant land. Simple as that.

lovecraft:

To whoever asked about Muslims having to convert people, this is from wikipedia.

"According to Islamic laws, non-Muslims in Islamic Lands should be subdued and be treated like Dhimmis, or second class citizens. They should be coerced and intimidated to convert to Islam, through special humiliating taxes like Jizya imposed on them. This has been happening in the Islamic World since the last 1400 years. While Muslims demand equal rights in non-Muslim countries, non-Muslims are systematically persecuted, terrorized and ethnically cleansed from Islamic Lands. With the recent rise of Muslim populations in the traditionally Christian/Secular West, also comes the noticeable rise of Islamic violence and terrorist activities aimed towards the non-Muslims."

The convert/kill/make a slave of was heard from someone else, and shouldn't have been repeated. My apologies for being dramatic.

Wikipedia...eh.

And it's not as if that has not happened in Christian countries.

The Crusades. The Reformation. Witch trials. Dare I even say...the Holocaust?

The point is this AMERICA (what other countries do have nothing to do with this topic) has seperation of church and state. The government shouldn't be allowed to tell Muslims or other religious group where to worship and where not to worship.

^I'm not suggesting that it should.

I'm saying that something like this is deliberately provocative to people affected by 9/11, it's in extremely poor taste, and it's not something that should be happening. Unforetunately, the only thing that can be done to stop it is protest, because it has to be shut down by lack of funding or it's own initiative, the government stopping it would be wrong.

lovecraft:

^I'm not suggesting that it should.

I'm saying that something like this is deliberately provocative to people affected by 9/11, it's in extremely poor taste, and it's not something that should be happening. Unforetunately, the only thing that can be done to stop it is protest, because it has to be shut down by lack of funding or it's own initiative, the government stopping it would be wrong.

WHY IS IT WRONG? WHY SHOULD IT NOT BE HAPPENING?

How do you know it's deliberately trying to provoke people affected by 9/11?

pierrot the clown.:

Religious tolerance ™, the acceptance you need in your life. *

* Not applicable in the U.S.

I think that could be where my comment about American hating crap could have came from.

I think this is getting ridiculous thought. Why does this have to be made about hating a religion. I think that them doing this is just provoking. Its really not going to fix anything. I know they probably caught a lot of crap from a lot of people after 9/11, building this Mosque is probably going to bring a lot of people to refresh these feelings. It just seems like if they wanted to build it, the Trade Centers shouldn't have been mentioned. I'm not attacking the fact that they want a mosque there, (though I'm sure saying that "Well why can't they have one" doesn't apply, I'm more than positive there's more around the city) I'm just saying, if they wanted it there, they should have said they wanted it there for some other reason, not because they wanted to fix something. They went about this the entirely wrong way, and I don't think attacking Americans as a whole (as that statement I quoted obviously does) is helping your point. There will always be someone who will dislike that religion simply because they have a lot of extremists. Its going to happen. That doesn't mean they're going to attack everyone wearing a turban or who sounds like they're middle eastern. Some people dislike Jehovah's Witnesses because they're notorius for bothering people at their homes, I don't like when they knock on my door, I'm not going to start attacking people in my school.

And they sure as hell won't try to build anything near my home just so they can "apologize for the inconvenience" of bothering me.

To me it just seems like they're trying to get a rise out of people, and somehow that makes me religiously intolerant, but hey, whatever makes you guys feel better.

Jessi Bunny, it's called cynicism. It doesn't always translate well online, but I thought I made it pretty obvious. Nowhere in the post do I say anything against the U.S., though. It just says that there are still religiously intolerant people in the U.S. (and I'm not saying all).

Meh, I didn't mean to come off as angry as that probably was

I'm genuinely sorry, I had been arguing in real life with someone and the anger kind of flowed through, you've all been there right?

I do tend to get more annoyed when people pick on USA. I know we have a reputation for being pigs but that's really just the way the media portrays us to be. They really should have just said they wanted to build there for certain reasons other than to patch up things, it would make things so much easier. 9/11 is too much of a touchy subject to even try to do something like that.

^ But shouldn't we try to work it out? It's been nine years... It's something that will hopefully break the ice.

pierrot the clown.:

WHY IS IT WRONG? WHY SHOULD IT NOT BE HAPPENING?

How do you know it's deliberately trying to provoke people affected by 9/11?

The government can't shut it down- that smacks of religious intolerance by a government, which doesn't work well. It starts with something small, and then other things start slipping by. It's a slippery slope to complete religious intolerance.

Even if it's not deliberately trying to offend, it IS offending. People have been being vocal about it being offensive for quite some time. Why would you intentionally pour salt in a wound by doing something you KNOW is going to be controversial and offensive?

lovecraft:

The government can't shut it down- that smacks of religious intolerance by a government, which doesn't work well. It starts with something small, and then other things start slipping by. It's a slippery slope to complete religious intolerance.

Even if it's not deliberately trying to offend, it IS offending. People have been being vocal about it being offensive for quite some time. Why would you intentionally pour salt in a wound by doing something you KNOW is going to be controversial and offensive?

You know what's truly offending?
The fact that the US has literally slaughtered thousands of innocent civilians in Iraq for no apparent reason (to this day there is absolutely no conclusive evidence that Iraq supported Al-Qaeda or produced mass-murder weapons), but they have the nerve to say that all Muslims are blood-thirsty psychos. How could the world not be anti-American when the US is so hypocritical?

It doesn't matter if its been 9 years. Ask the Jewish people if its alright for the Nazi party to hold its meetings next door to their place of worship.

What happened on 9/11 was an awful terrible thing that should have never happened and will be remembered for generations. 9 years is actually a pretty short time considering how hard it struck the nation. They haven't even let the generation pass by.

I was in 3rd grade and we watched everything on the news. Every classroom in the building watched the Towers Fall. All of our teachers cried, even a few of the Kindergarten age children. It was a traumatic day for the children, the adults, and the families that lost their loved ones. What do you think this is doing to them? They probably don't hate the entire Muslim population, but do you really think they need that resting on their minds as well? 9 years is nothing if you lost someone to the Towers. 9 years is nothing to many of the American people.

They should have never brought up the towers

That's all I'm saying, they could have built it there and had no trouble at all, but when you bring up something like that, especially when people will kill over it, you're just asking for trouble.