Proposed (and Approved) Mosque at Ground Zero in NYC

Silver.:

Yeah - but the difference? If Christians followed Jesus to the T they would be KIND. The Koran teaches violence. I don't understand. People bash the Bible for the OT and say how horrible they are even though Jesus said to now live with mercy. And yet those same people stand up for Islam? An Allah who teaches to kill anyone who's not Muslim, to beat their wives, lying is okay, and all that? I seriously don't understand.

I'm a religious studies major so I have to take classes on religions besides Christianity, to point out the obvious. I took Islamic Law and Modern Islam. Anyways. We were watching these videos and reading these articles and (from the mouths of people in Islamic terrorist groups) they spoke about how stupid Americans are. They don't want peace with us, these groups. They want us dead. When we appease them they think we're weak. They don't want to get along. They want to fight. (They want the Jihad). So, yes, when it comes to Islamic terrorist groups, this type of thing makes them see us as weak. And whens the best time to attack. When someone is weak.

If people followed the Old Testament, women who weren't virgins on their wedding night would be stoned to death. Oh, but don't worry, those people would be KIND because they'd be doing the husband a favor, I guess.

Also in the list of people to kill according to the Old Testament: homosexuals, adulterers, and followers of other religions. But remember, this isn't violence, it's just punishment!

-

Just, please people, stop bringing your religious beliefs into this. They have nothing to do here.

pierrot the clown.:

If people followed the Old Testament, women who weren't virgins on their wedding night would be stoned to death. Oh, but don't worry, those people would be KIND because they'd be doing the husband a favor, I guess.

Christians follow Jesus, so they don't believe in those kind of things. Jesus fulfilled the old laws.

And, actually, despite what everyone believes ancient Jews didn't go around stoning people for every little sin. There were actually trials. There were 23 judges. Four types of death penalty: stoning, burning, slaying, and strangling. (Hm. I'm pretty sure even modern America has a death penalty and 200 years ago we were still hanging people.) In order to be convicted there had to be two witnesses who saw the crime and told the person committing the crime it was wrong. The criminal's own confession was not accepted as evidence.

Not to mention God teaches us to obey authority (government) and the Jews got the right to such things taken away. They even say that a Sanhedrin (the judges) that puts a man to death once in seven years is called destructive.

Islam has nothing like that.

I wasn't the one to bring my religious beliefs into this, fyi. I never said anything about it until people starting talking about how Christians don't follow the Bible to the T and what not.

When I said what's actually in the Koran people say back that Christians don't follow the Bible. If we're not bringing other religions into this - how can people be okay with a religion that teaches such horrible things? (What the Koran teaches.)

Silver.:

pierrot the clown.:

If people followed the Old Testament, women who weren't virgins on their wedding night would be stoned to death. Oh, but don't worry, those people would be KIND because they'd be doing the husband a favor, I guess.

Christians follow Jesus, so they don't believe in those kind of things. Jesus fulfilled the old laws.

And, actually, despite what everyone believes ancient Jews didn't go around stoning people for every little sin. There were actually trials. There were 23 judges. Four types of death penalty: stoning, burning, slaying, and strangling. (Hm. I'm pretty sure even modern America has a death penalty and 200 years ago we were still hanging people.) In order to be convicted there had to be two witnesses who saw the crime and told the person committing the crime it was wrong. The criminal's own confession was not accepted as evidence.

Not to mention God teaches us to obey authority (government) and the Jews got the right to such things taken away. They even say that a Sanhedrin (the judges) that puts a man to death once in seven years is called destructive.

Islam has nothing like that.

I wasn't the one to bring my religious beliefs into this, fyi. I never said anything about it until people starting talking about how Christians don't follow the Bible to the T and what not.

When I said what's actually in the Koran people say back that Christians don't follow the Bible. If we're not bringing other religions into this - how can people be okay with a religion that teaches such horrible things? (What the Koran teaches.)

My point was: not all Christians follow the Old Testament front to back. Not all Muslims follow the Koran front to back.

And I didn't single you out for talking about your religious beliefs, but honestly? You're the only one who has come here to preach us that "If everyone followed Jesus, the world would be a better place." and the only one who has flat out basically said that all Muslims are horrible people.

And a Mosque isn't going to make more people Muslims, so just stop trying to make it seem as it would.

I said having a Mosque there would make the extreme Muslims think they can get away with things like that. That in a few years we'll just forget about it. Read some articles and books written by people involved with those groups. It's a fact that they say they only respect those who fight back.

My point was: it doesn't matter if they follow it front to back or not. Because what's in it teaches them to kill people (especially Christians and Jews). And I didn't preach. All I did was start out talking about what's actually in the Koran itself. You said the word "you" after you quoted me. Most people would take that as a direct comment.

Quote

And I didn't single you out for talking about your religious beliefs, but honestly? You're the only one who has come here to preach us that "If everyone followed Jesus, the world would be a better place." and the only one who has flat out basically said that all Muslims are horrible people.

That's not what's being said at all. She's saying that CHRISTIANS, who are followers of Jesus, are supposed to be forgiving, loving, and emulate Jesus. Muslims are supposed to be bigots who attack people of a different religion. She wasn't saying that everyone should be a christian so that the world is full of fluffy bunnies and the skies are full of rainbows, she's demonstrating the extreme difference between MODERN Christianity and the modern, but completely unchanged from archaic, Islam.

But the thing is, it doesn't matter if Islam is "archaic" because of religious tolerance. Simple as that.

We shouldn't punish a religion for the deeds done by a minority of that group.

America is supposed to be the land of religious freedom. And I don't give a damn if a religion preaches that their followers should nail pigeons to every door in their house. They still deserve a place of worship.

^There are MORE mosques in New York State than any other, excepting California.

And you claim they're not allowed to worship in NYC, or the US?

What is pissing people off about this is that they are building it as close as they can to the WTC. And they're doing it BECAUSE of 9/11, even if it's not meant to antagonise, but to make amends. It will not make amends, because people don't want to forgive the minority that was at fault for 9/11, and don't want to accept anyone related to them.

It IS the land of religious freedom, but seriously? Build your mosque somewhere else, and don't try to make amends by making yourself more obvious in a place that still tears a hole in the collective heart of New York.

I have to agree with lovecraft. It's not the building of it that's upsetting... but the location. Out of all the possible places, why there? Why does the government feel the need to push this thing, anyways? It doesn't make sense. Most people are upset with this.

Whatever. There is nothing legally stopping them from building their mosque.

So your arguments are invalid.

It's our opinion. I'm sorry but I don't understand? How can they be invalid? We are saying how we feel about this decision. Nothing about the legality of it.

Sure, you can have your opinions. But because America has freedom of religion that makes your opinions invalid on the decision of rather or not that mosque should be built.

It like saying the sky is pink when science has proved it's blue. It's not gonna matter what you say.

In America, we also have the freedom of speech. And the government is supposed to listen to that speech. This has nothing to do with freedom of religion. The majority of people are against this. Not because we don't think Muslims should have freedom but because we think our fallen firemen, officers, and the men and women in those buildings should be honored. Having the same religion that murdered them, shaking our nation like that shouldn't have their place of worship so close.

Silver.:

Islam has nothing like that.

Have you actually read the entire Koran? What about the Hadith?
You don't have any kind of authority to say what Islam is like. Chances are all you know about Islam is based on what other people who haven't the faintest clue how or what the Islamic religious texts are said on tv.

lovecraft:

I think you'll find it's the government doing that, not the people, and the people are criticising the mosque, not the government. That's the difference.

And I think you'll also find that many americans DID protest the US attacking Iraq, simply on the basis that it might be connected to WMD's, and that the government was heavily suspect and criticised because people thought they were doing it for oil rights.

The people have voted and kept in place that government. The US is a democracy and the Constitution says that the people have the power to overthrown an unjust government. The American people is 100% responsible and guilty for the war in Iraq.

Silver.:

In America, we also have the freedom of speech. And the government is supposed to listen to that speech. This has nothing to do with freedom of religion. The majority of people are against this. Not because we don't think Muslims should have freedom but because we think our fallen firemen, officers, and the men and women in those buildings should be honored. Having the same religion that murdered them, shaking our nation like that shouldn't have their place of worship so close.

And the majority of German people wanted the Nazi party to rule Germany. That doesn't make Germany's actions in WWII or the Holocaust right, just the German people very very prejudiced and wrong.
To be honest, the lack of respect for human rights that the US constantly exhibits horrifies me. The freedom to worship your own god is a fundamental human right, it goes beyond petty historical events and political intrigues and guarantees us our humanity. The fact that people seriously believe that by being prejudiced bigots they're somehow honoring the memory of those who died in 9/11 makes me sick.

^You seriously, honestly understand nothing behind the reasoning, do you? All you see is that there is some sort of religion involved. So because we don't want a huge reminder, refreshing all those horrible memories for everyone, we all hate Muslims. That's what I'm getting from you and its incredibly wrong.

You're unbelievably anti-American and its clouding your views to what we're trying to say. We're not saying "No Mosque for you!"

It's more of a "Why the hell would you want to do that?" type thing. They know now that they are not making amends, by any means, and they are still pushing to do it. If nothing else its just some sick publicity stunt. I assure you the majority do not want that building there, not because we hate Muslims, but because they brought up 9/11.

This wouldn't even be a big fucking deal if they hadn't brought it up. They could have gotten their damn place of worship and little to no one would be as pissed off as they are now. Do you understand now? Or am I still religiously intolerant?

I understand how for some reason, all Americans...or excuse me, the 'majority' of Americans are pretty much just awful fat pigs who tote around shotguns screaming that the the Middle East deserved it, but this is a discussion about why they would choose to bring it up, not "you're all stupid xenophobic Americans" rant hour.

Excuse us for not rushing up in arms to throw out our government, if you haven't noticed, it's quite corrupt. We had a President who became President, when he lost the popular vote. We really don't have the power anymore. They have an army. We are civilians. Feel free to jump right in and take on one of the most powerful forces in the world though, some pointers could be used. What exactly are we supposed to do?

We elect them because we have nothing better to pick. Our political system is shot right now, so we really just have to grit our teeth and pick between two bowls of shit. Sometimes, (obviously) even when we choose the less stinky bowl of shit, the rancid one still gets the power.

Now, can we get off the topic of how 'hateful' we're being, and maybe you can focus on what we're really trying to explain?

They were stupid, moronic, and out of line when they brought up the trade centers.

I'm beginning to believe if you're not an American, then you don't understand the pain behind the entire situation.

JessiBunny:

I'm beginning to believe if you're not an American, then you don't understand the pain behind the entire situation.

This might come as big news to you, but we in the rest of the world have experienced terrorism too. Not just of the Al-Qaeda variety. To suggest that Americans are the only people to know the pain of terrorism is downright offensive and monstrous to the victims in other countries, whose lives don't count for less because they were un-American. I'm just about old enough to remember what the IRA did during the 1990s (especially the Manchester bombing, because it happened so close to me) but I don't care if they build a Catholic cathedral in the Arndale centre itself because I don't hold Catholics responsible for what the IRA did.

JessiBunny:

It's more of a "Why the hell would you want to do that?" type thing. They know now that they are not making amends, by any means, and they are still pushing to do it. If nothing else its just some sick publicity stunt. I assure you the majority do not want that building there, not because we hate Muslims, but because they brought up 9/11.

I'd like to point out that the Mosque wasn't directly linked to 9/11. The man who proposed the Mosque wanted to create a sense of reconciliation between Christianity, Judaism and Islam, and from what I've read from various American news sources, I can't see anywhere that it was claimed the Mosque was being built just solely because of 9/11.

I believe the media brought up 9/11 because "Mosque to be built two blocks from Ground Zero" makes for good news. I don't think the intentions of the people who proposed the Mosque were to open up old wounds to do with 9/11, necessarily. I personally feel that's the way people have perceived it. But I don't think that was the intention.

Feel free to get angry about it because of 9/11. But consider the facts: it's not actually being built on ground zero, it's going to be two blocks away. Also keep in mind that there are a lot of American citizens, who were born in America, who are Muslim. And any New York American Muslims who were present at the time of 9/11 in NYC are probably just as horrified about the happenings as you are and are just as opposed radical Islam as you are.

Matt Smith:

This might come as big news to you, but we in the rest of the world have experienced terrorism too. Not just of the Al-Qaeda variety. To suggest that Americans are the only people to know the pain of terrorism is downright offensive and monstrous to the victims in other countries, whose lives don't count for less because they were un-American. I'm just about old enough to remember what the IRA did during the 1990s (especially the Manchester bombing, because it happened so close to me) but I don't care if they build a Catholic cathedral in the Arndale centre itself because I don't hold Catholics responsible for what the IRA did.

That came out wrong, its just from my understanding all shes saying is that it wasn't a big deal. That we shouldn't get so riled up about it. I wasn't saying that no one else understood terrorism, I was saying she's underestimating how Americans feel about 9/11. We had a whole mess of students stage a walk out (as it is we've had one every year since my class got into the high school ) because they thought we should have 9/11 off. The ones who actually left school because they believed in it stood up for it until they got suspended for weeks, a few even got arrested, parents showed up and it turned into this big "march to the square" protest.

It seems kind of off topic but we had parents that were getting just as riled up as the 'hormonal' teenagers were. One parents verbally abused a police officer for arresting a girl because she threw a soda can at his car. It was an all day thing, not sure if there were any online reports about it, but if I find it I'll be sure and post.

I'm just saying, she's not being reasonable about how we feel about 9/11. Saying "La Dee Freaking Da" about anything that has anything to do with 9/11 automatically puts most Americans on offense anyway.

It just seems there should be a bit more, caution with the way their wording these things. It may have happened about a decade ago, but thats no time at all when you're considering that we're still in a war that was chained over from a war that started because that all happened. I'll go as far to say that if 9/11 hadn't happened, American soldiers wouldn't be over seas (any more that normal.) fighting a war that's not ours, and dying for a cause the American people never approved.

I was just reading the news reports. I was pretty sure he had brought up 9/11 on his own, but I'll double check and get back to you. If I am wrong, then I sincerely apologize.

JessiBunny:

It just seems there should be a bit more, caution with the way their wording these things. It may have happened about a decade ago, but thats no time at all when you're considering that we're still in a war that was chained over from a war that started because that all happened. I'll go as far to say that if 9/11 hadn't happened, American soldiers wouldn't be over seas (any more that normal.) fighting a war that's not ours, and dying for a cause the American people never approved.

But Americans aren't the only soldiers fighting (or who have fought) in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm acutely aware of the cost of Britain's involvement because I live here. There are also NATO troops from many other countries who have fought and died. I get that you're going to be primarily concerned with America, but this isn't just your war, it stopped just being 'your' war the minute you asked other countries to join in and start dying for the same cause.

People forget that more British nationals died in 9/11 than in the 7/7 London bombings. So yeah, it's not only your right to get emotional about this. It's not only your people who had to mourn. But has any of the outrage over this focussed on how the rest of us feel? You can't really pull the 'only Americans understand' card because September 11th wasn't exclusively and completely an American tragedy, it was a tragedy for 77 different countries that lost citizens and probably the rest of the world too.

JessiBunny:

^You seriously, honestly understand nothing behind the reasoning, do you? All you see is that there is some sort of religion involved. So because we don't want a huge reminder, refreshing all those horrible memories for everyone, we all hate Muslims. That's what I'm getting from you and its incredibly wrong.

Well the fact that you compare them to Nazis and claim that they want to build a mosque just to spite you doesn't suggest that you love them. So far you've let the impression that you hold Islam (and implicitly all Muslims) responsible for 9/11.

Quote

You're unbelievably anti-American and its clouding your views to what we're trying to say. We're not saying "No Mosque for you!"

Really? Then what are you saying?

Quote

It's more of a "Why the hell would you want to do that?" type thing. They know now that they are not making amends, by any means, and they are still pushing to do it. If nothing else its just some sick publicity stunt. I assure you the majority do not want that building there, not because we hate Muslims, but because they brought up 9/11.

Oh yes, now I see it clearly, you don't hate Muslims, you just think they're all blood thirsty terrorists.

Quote

This wouldn't even be a big fucking deal if they hadn't brought it up.

Why shouldn't they have brought it up? Should all Muslims be forbidden to discuss 9/11 and how over night an entire nation started hating them for no better reason than the fact that they exist?

Quote

They could have gotten their damn place of worship and little to no one would be as pissed off as they are now. Do you understand now? Or am I still religiously intolerant?

You're incredibly intolerant and prejudiced. I'm waiting for you to suggest that it would be best if all Muslims were gathered up and put in some sort of concentration camp where they'd be free to worship their God and blow themselves up because as long as you don't see or hear of it, you could care less. Obviously they deserve something like this since they all caused 9/11. You did that to Japanese Americans during WWII it's time you do the same with Muslims.

Quote

I understand how for some reason, all Americans...or excuse me, the 'majority' of Americans are pretty much just awful fat pigs who tote around shotguns screaming that the the Middle East deserved it, but this is a discussion about why they would choose to bring it up, not "you're all stupid xenophobic Americans" rant hour.

I must compliment you on your sense of humour.

Quote

Excuse us for not rushing up in arms to throw out our government, if you haven't noticed, it's quite corrupt. We had a President who became President, when he lost the popular vote. We really don't have the power anymore. They have an army. We are civilians. Feel free to jump right in and take on one of the most powerful forces in the world though, some pointers could be used. What exactly are we supposed to do?

We elect them because we have nothing better to pick. Our political system is shot right now, so we really just have to grit our teeth and pick between two bowls of shit. Sometimes, (obviously) even when we choose the less stinky bowl of shit, the rancid one still gets the power.

That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute a new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

I dare say that your Declaration of Independence grants you both the right and the responsibility to take up arms when the government no longer submits to the consent of the governed. If you don't, it's still your responsibility and your fault for not even bothering to try.

Quote

Now, can we get off the topic of how 'hateful' we're being, and maybe you can focus on what we're really trying to explain?

They were stupid, moronic, and out of line when they brought up the trade centers.

I'm beginning to believe if you're not an American, then you don't understand the pain behind the entire situation.

Terrorist attacks are an almost daily occurrence in many countries, but non-Americans must feel pain in a different way. You're clearly the people who had the most to suffer in the last ten-twenty years from terrorism and nobody can understand your pain.

--
I wonder if there are any Islamic centers/mosques near London underground stations. According to Google there's one in central London so I suppose it should be almost as close to an underground station as the Islamic center would be of Ground Zero. But I'm just guessing since I've never been to London, maybe somebody can elucidate this mystery for us.