Slavery and Segregation vs. Holocaust

  • Ayana Sioux

    Ayana Sioux (1175)

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    I've heard a lot of people say that they believe that the holocaust is worse than slavery and segregation and whatnot and personally, I find this kind of surprising.

    What do you people think?
    September 25th, 2010 at 12:48am
  • Matt Smith

    Matt Smith (900)

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    I don't think you can accurately compare the two and decide which was 'worse' without it turning into some sort of oppression olympics. They were both huge acts of hatred against humanity that produced a vast amount of suffering. Both caused pain and conflict and destruction and there can be no justification but I don't believe either was worse because you can't compare them in that sense.
    September 25th, 2010 at 07:48pm
  • Ayana Sioux

    Ayana Sioux (1175)

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    Well, that might be the case with you but you know, other people don't think so.

    Personally I think one caused more damage than the other.
    September 25th, 2010 at 08:08pm
  • Matt Smith

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    ayanasioux:
    Well, that might be the case with you but you know, other people don't think so.
    I understand the concept of people disagreeing as part of a debate. You really didn't need to point that out. Perhaps if you disagree with me then you'd like to explain why.
    September 26th, 2010 at 01:42pm
  • kafka.

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    ayanasioux:
    Well, that might be the case with you but you know, other people don't think so.

    Personally I think one caused more damage than the other.
    Your not being Jewish might have a lot to do with that.
    September 26th, 2010 at 04:15pm
  • Ayana Sioux

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    kafka.:
    Your not being Jewish might have a lot to do with that.
    I'm not being biased about the situation. It has much more to it than that... and how would you know whether I'm Jewish or not?
    September 26th, 2010 at 09:34pm
  • Ayana Sioux

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    Matt Smith:
    I understand the concept of people disagreeing as part of a debate. You really didn't need to point that out. Perhaps if you disagree with me then you'd like to explain why.
    If you think about it from the slim perspective, slavery and segregation lasted much longer than the holocaust did. I also believe the dehumanization process lasted much longer in slavery and segregation than it did in the holocaust causing much more damage to the conscious to those that suffered in slavery.
    September 26th, 2010 at 09:37pm
  • pierrot the clown.

    pierrot the clown. (100)

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    I don't think you can or should compare the suffering different groups of people have gone through. They're not comparable, and one would have to experience both to have an objective (and I use the term loosely) perspective.

    It doesn't matter which lasted longer, which you feel more related to, or which you deem crueler. You're appropriating the experience that both people in the Holocaust and those who were sold into slavery went through.
    September 26th, 2010 at 09:53pm
  • Ayana Sioux

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    pierrot the clown.:
    I don't think you can or should compare the suffering different groups of people have gone through. They're not comparable, and one would have to experience both to have an objective (and I use the term loosely) perspective.

    It doesn't matter which lasted longer, which you feel more related to, or which you deem crueler. You're appropriating the experience that both people in the Holocaust and those who were sold into slavery went through.
    See that's the point I'm making in the forum. People tend to believe that the holocaust was worse than slavery and segregation.

    Relation has nothing to do with my statement. I believe the Native Americans had it very bad maybe even worse because their culture and population is almost non-existent because it's so scarce. Hardly do we ever discuss them in schools or anywhere unless we're talking about them being moved west in the US.
    September 26th, 2010 at 09:59pm
  • pierrot the clown.

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    ayanasioux:
    pierrot the clown.:
    I don't think you can or should compare the suffering different groups of people have gone through. They're not comparable, and one would have to experience both to have an objective (and I use the term loosely) perspective.

    It doesn't matter which lasted longer, which you feel more related to, or which you deem crueler. You're appropriating the experience that both people in the Holocaust and those who were sold into slavery went through.
    See that's the point I'm making in the forum. People tend to believe that the holocaust was worse than slavery and segregation.

    Relation has nothing to do with my statement. I believe the Native Americans had it very bad maybe even worse because their culture and population is almost non-existent because it's so scarce. Hardly do we ever discuss them in schools or anywhere unless we're talking about them being moved west in the US.
    Who said I believed the Holocaust was worse? I wasn't there, and even if I had been, who is anyone to say one event in history was worse than another? Is it the one that lasted longer? The one that put people through the most painful physical torture? The one that was the most emotionally devastating? The one that had the most deaths? The one that disintegrated more families?

    The very answer to some of those questions is still subjective.

    The point, as I said before, is that you're appropriating experiences you haven't gone through. At least, I'm pretty sure you were born after the 40s and I don't think you were ever a slave.
    September 26th, 2010 at 10:23pm
  • Matt Smith

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    ayanasioux:
    If you think about it from the slim perspective, slavery and segregation lasted much longer than the holocaust did. I also believe the dehumanization process lasted much longer in slavery and segregation than it did in the holocaust causing much more damage to the conscious to those that suffered in slavery.
    Whilst I take your point, I just don't see how we can turn this into some sort of competition of which oppressed group has had it worse. It's not just about comparing death tolls or timescales. The dehumanisation of the Jewish people is not a new thing, the Holocaust was only the most appalling in a long chain of events that included the Edict of Expulsion (13th century, England) and the Alhambra Decree (15th century, Spain) - so there's over eight hundred years' worth of persecution of Jewish people in Europe alone. So the Holocaust wasn't the only time Jewish people were dehumanised, it's been going on for more than a thousand years, the Holocaust was not a one-off instance of antisemitism.
    September 26th, 2010 at 11:48pm
  • kafka.

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    ayanasioux:
    I'm not being biased about the situation. It has much more to it than that... and how would you know whether I'm Jewish or not?
    The way you boast about being black sortof gives you away. We all think somebody else's pain is not quite as painful as ours.
    September 27th, 2010 at 12:22am
  • Ayana Sioux

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    pierrot the clown.:
    Who said I believed the Holocaust was worse? I wasn't there, and even if I had been, who is anyone to say one event in history was worse than another? Is it the one that lasted longer? The one that put people through the most painful physical torture? The one that was the most emotionally devastating? The one that had the most deaths? The one that disintegrated more families?

    The very answer to some of those questions is still subjective.

    The point, as I said before, is that you're appropriating experiences you haven't gone through. At least, I'm pretty sure you were born after the 40s and I don't think you were ever a slave.
    I never said you in particular says the the holocaust is worse. I might not know about slavery or segregation but I do know about racism and if that feels this bad, there's no telling what slavery could have done or the holocaust of that matter.
    But basically I created this forum to debate with anyone that did believe that one was worse than the other and all of that good stuff.
    September 27th, 2010 at 03:19am
  • Ayana Sioux

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    Matt Smith:
    Whilst I take your point, I just don't see how we can turn this into some sort of competition of which oppressed group has had it worse. It's not just about comparing death tolls or timescales. The dehumanisation of the Jewish people is not a new thing, the Holocaust was only the most appalling in a long chain of events that included the Edict of Expulsion (13th century, England) and the Alhambra Decree (15th century, Spain) - so there's over eight hundred years' worth of persecution of Jewish people in Europe alone. So the Holocaust wasn't the only time Jewish people were dehumanised, it's been going on for more than a thousand years, the Holocaust was not a one-off instance of antisemitism.
    Yes but I don't think the dehumanization was as server.
    If you think about it now people of the Jewish culture still practice their old beliefs and customs more so than that of African descent. For an instance, I don't know what the hell I am. All I know is that my great grandfather was Scottish but I look so black, no one could tell.

    Most Jews that I know of still practice Hanukkah but black people like myself know nothing about any African holidays if there were any. Hell, some black people don't even believe they're from African descent and often look at African's as jokes. They just say they're black as if it's a race because they are ashamed of claiming their African name.
    September 27th, 2010 at 03:33am
  • Ayana Sioux

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    kafka.:
    The way you boast about being black sortof gives you away. We all think somebody else's pain is not quite as painful as ours.
    Have you never heard of a black Jew? That's crazy. Besides, anyone alive that was black during the holocaust (although there probably weren't a lot) experienced it too except I think they were killed right away. Don't forget that it wasn't just Jews that were killed.
    September 27th, 2010 at 03:35am
  • pierrot the clown.

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    ayanasioux:
    I never said you in particular says the the holocaust is worse. I might not know about slavery or segregation but I do know about racism and if that feels this bad, there's no telling what slavery could have done or the holocaust of that matter.
    Racism feels bad. Being a slave feels bad. Being sent to a concentration camp feels bad. What's your point? Can you explain to me why you believe that victims of the Holocaust were better off than people sold into slavery?

    Also, you shouldn't post twice in a row in the same thread. You can always edit your previous post and add whatever you want to say.
    September 27th, 2010 at 03:55am
  • kafka.

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    ayanasioux:
    Have you never heard of a black Jew? That's crazy. Besides, anyone alive that was black during the holocaust (although there probably weren't a lot) experienced it too except I think they were killed right away. Don't forget that it wasn't just Jews that were killed.
    There are plenty African black Jews, but American ones tend to be significantly more rare. Plus, I was right, wasn't I? You're not Jewish, you're black so you think whatever your ancestors went through had to be much worse than what my ancestors or somebody else's went through. It's as simple as that and what you're doing is quite disgusting, to be honest, because you're trying to belittle one of the most traumatic events in human history in an attempt to get bragging rights.
    ayanasioux:
    Yes but I don't think the dehumanization was as server.
    If you think about it now people of the Jewish culture still practice their old beliefs and customs more so than that of African descent. For an instance, I don't know what the hell I am. All I know is that my great grandfather was Scottish but I look so black, no one could tell.
    Most young Jewish people don't know much about "what the hell they are" either because between 1933 and 1945 the vast majority of their relatives were slaughtered at such a rapid pace, finding out who died, where, when and how is nearly impossible.
    September 27th, 2010 at 09:26am
  • Ayana Sioux

    Ayana Sioux (1175)

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    pierrot the clown.:
    Racism feels bad. Being a slave feels bad. Being sent to a concentration camp feels bad. What's your point? Can you explain to me why you believe that victims of the Holocaust were better off than people sold into slavery?
    When did I say one or the other is better? All I remember saying is that I believe one did more damage to the human minds worse, in my opinion.
    Quote
    Also, you shouldn't post twice in a row in the same thread. You can always edit your previous post and add whatever you want to say.
    I don't know how to quote different people at once.
    September 27th, 2010 at 12:45pm
  • Matt Smith

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    ayanasioux:
    Yes but I don't think the dehumanization was as server.
    If you think about it now people of the Jewish culture still practice their old beliefs and customs more so than that of African descent. For an instance, I don't know what the hell I am. All I know is that my great grandfather was Scottish but I look so black, no one could tell.

    Most Jews that I know of still practice Hanukkah but black people like myself know nothing about any African holidays if there were any. Hell, some black people don't even believe they're from African descent and often look at African's as jokes. They just say they're black as if it's a race because they are ashamed of claiming their African name.
    You're totally decontextualising here. Black people don't only exist in America, you seem to be making this implication repeatedly. There are black communites who have an important place in many different countries and cultures throughout the world. The fact that you're not connected to your cultural heritage doesn't mean nobody else is - I have a friend who is Kikuyu and she speaks the Kikuyu language even though she's lived in Britain her whole life so there clearly is a sense of culture, heritage and tradition there. It's like you're erasing the existence of all Africans who aren't Americans, and there are close to a billion Africans who live on the African continent (plus a large diaspora, yes, the result of slavery, but there's also emigration and colonialism to take into account too). So I don't see how you can only talk about the experiences of the African diaspora within America. Not everybody has the same experience with regards to culture, language, heritage etc.

    So what I'm really trying to get at is that you can't just say that 'the dehumanisation of the Jewish people wasn't as severe' because, what even, it's not a competition. Why does it matter to you who suffered most? It doesn't change the weight of the atrocity and you're just belittling the experiences of whichever group you think had it worse. I'd find it inappropriate if you were trying to compare, for example, the Rwandan Genocide to the Armenian Genocide and asking whether Rwandans or Armenians had it worse.
    September 27th, 2010 at 07:07pm
  • pierrot the clown.

    pierrot the clown. (100)

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    ayanasioux:
    When did I say one or the other is better? All I remember saying is that I believe one did more damage to the human minds worse, in my opinion.
    ayanasioux:
    I also believe the dehumanization process lasted much longer in slavery and segregation than it did in the holocaust causing much more damage to the conscious to those that suffered in slavery.
    -
    ayanasioux:
    I don't know how to quote different people at once.
    [ q u o t e = " username " ] quote [ / q u o t e ]

    ^ Do that, just don't include the spaces. You can copy-paste the person's post to avoid rewriting it.
    September 28th, 2010 at 01:28am