Slavery and Segregation vs. Holocaust

ayanasioux:

First, if you want to talk about segregation and slavery in American than that's what you need to post. Your original Discussion topic was not directed towards the Slavery and Segregation in America, so it leaves anyone open to talk about it world wide.

Secondly, you are allowed to talk about your pain, what bothers and annoys me, you make it seem that you have it worse than everyone else in America or the world. You should be careful with the wording that you choose. Also your mood shouldn't influence the way you think on white people. I can be in a shitty mood because of something a black person did to me, but you won't see me sitting here and posting how I hate all black people because they are all the same. That would just be ignorant of me.

Thirdly, you read what you choose to read. Do you now want to know about the world? When I point out things to you that you have previously asked in the thread. You need to keep you mind open and not live just looking in one direction.

Lastly, like I have stated previously, with views like you have on white people, then surely racism won't end. It has to start somewhere, no? Sure my parents have racist views on some races but you don't see me taking them on. Trust me I have heard my fair share of racism in my house. You have to grow from the family belief. If the younger generation doesn't try to end racism it will only continue to grow. If you look at what's happening in the world, like I do when I feel like I have been wronged, you would start to realize that your problems aren't merely as bad.

Okay, ya'll win. I'm withdrawing myself from the whole conversation. I shouldn't feel no pain. Who cares anymore anyway?
I've said me peace.

ayanasioux:

Okay, ya'll win. I'm withdrawing myself from the whole conversation. I shouldn't feel no pain. Who cares anymore anyway?
I've said me peace.

You don't see that this isn't about winning or losing. It's about understanding from other's point of view and not putting it down.

Well, when I say you win I mean ya'll can have youw way or whatever. I'm pulling myself out now.

ayanasioux:

How am I isulting intelligence? I'm just expressing that I don't agree with what they're saying, same as the others.

You're not just disagreeing, you're being extremely condescending.

ayanasioux:

? Jesus, I don't know how to spell it out for you.

ayanasioux:

Huuuuh, why do I even try anymore?

ayanasioux:

Sounds like you're starting to pull stuff out of your ass.

ayanasioux:

you're going to tell me that you're not going to form even the slightest bit of hatred towards them? Fuck out of here.

ayanasioux:

Put some damn glasses on or something for christ sakes!

If you have any more questions regarding this issue, you can message me, but I don't want to take the thread off topic any more.

Okay, you're right. That's just my demeanor. I'll try to stop.

I think that the Holocaust was the worst of it because people got burned alive, gassed, and worked to death. Slavery and Segregation comes close though because they were both racially based. It just seems the Holocaust's conditions were harsher and a great amount of people died for something they couldn't help. But so did people in slavery. It's close but Holocaust is worse.

melmelzie:

I think that the Holocaust was the worst of it because people got burned alive, gassed, and worked to death. Slavery and Segregation comes close though because they were both racially based. It just seems the Holocaust's conditions were harsher and a great amount of people died for something they couldn't help. But so did people in slavery. It's close but Holocaust is worse.

It's true that both were a result of racism and segregation, so what it really boils down to is who was treated worse: the people forced into places like Auschwitz, or those who were worked to death on sugar plantations?

melmelzie:

I think that the Holocaust was the worst of it because people got burned alive, gassed, and worked to death. Slavery and Segregation comes close though because they were both racially based. It just seems the Holocaust's conditions were harsher and a great amount of people died for something they couldn't help. But so did people in slavery. It's close but Holocaust is worse.

Well you do know that during slavery slaves were burn, and worked to death also? It's just unknown to most because the media wants to hide most of it and because they people that were murdered during slavery weren't counted for because they weren't considered citizens and also because it wasn't as modern as the Holocaust.

LEAF.:

It's true that both were a result of racism and segregation, so what it really boils down to is who was treated worse: the people forced into places like Auschwitz, or those who were worked to death on sugar plantations?

But when considering 'which is worse' you also have to take into account numbers of people that suffered on the whole as well as what they actually went through. It could be said that what the people in the Holocaust suffered was worse, but you could also argue that more people suffered as a result of slavery over the years.

^ Over three centuries and about... fifty years, precisely.

ayanasioux:

^ Over three centuries and about... fifty years, precisely.

Wait, what? What kind of slavery are we discussing specifically? Because slavery and segregation still continues.

Slavery in America, I think I made that clear earlier in the debate.

sunflowers.:

But when considering 'which is worse' you also have to take into account numbers of people that suffered on the whole as well as what they actually went through. It could be said that what the people in the Holocaust suffered was worse, but you could also argue that more people suffered as a result of slavery over the years.

You could also argue that the Jews suffered in Germany in the years prior to the Holocaust, where they suffered severe discrimination before Hitler even came to power.

There's also the fact that the Egyptians kept the Hebrews (Jews) as slaves to build their pyramids millennia ago, and the thousands of Jews that were killed during the Crusades.

I'd say that it's not exactly fair to only measure the Holocaust against centuries of African American slavery and segregation. A better discussion would compare, say, the middle passage, to the Holocaust. If you're going to count everything the Europeans have done to African Americans over centuries, you may as well count everything that has been done to the Jews. Neither were isolated incidents.

LEAF.:

There's also the fact that the Egyptians kept the Hebrews (Jews) as slaves to build their pyramids millennia ago

Actually, no they weren't (this is like the one historical fact I have down; let me have my moment here). For one thing, the Jews weren't in Egypt at the time the pyramids were being built; for another, the pharaohs never would have let slaves build their tombs; slaves were considered unclean, and it was of the utmost importance that the pharaoh's home in his journey to the afterlife be perfect in all ways. Ancient Egyptians considered it an honor to work on the building of the pyramids.

With regards to the actual discussion: if you are so inclined to compare the two, I don't think you can do so based on utilitarian measures of numbers dead and such (at least not without the ability to view alternate realities). It's really very arguable either way. From the inside, American slavery / slavery in general could be seen as worse because it is more or less inescapable and condemns one's descendants to be slaves; whereas the Holocaust was part of a war and all wars end eventually. But then, a victim of the Holocaust might find it more demoralizing to know that his entire culture and ethnicity was being threatened with total termination, while an American slave was probably aware that his heritage lived on, if not through him and his children, then at least in Africa, since obviously not all Africans were the target of the colonial slave trade (though it's possible that entire tribes were wiped out; I really don't know).

My point is that I don't really think it's fair to compare the two in terms of "who had it worse"; all violations of human rights are evil.

Cassandra Mortmain:

Actually, no they weren't (this is like the one historical fact I have down; let me have my moment here). For one thing, the Jews weren't in Egypt at the time the pyramids were being built; for another, the pharaohs never would have let slaves build their tombs; slaves were considered unclean, and it was of the utmost importance that the pharaoh's home in his journey to the afterlife be perfect in all ways. Ancient Egyptians considered it an honor to work on the building of the pyramids.

May I ask where you're getting this information? There's piles of evidence showing that they were there and kept as slaves, but this is the first time I've ever heard the opposite.

^Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't word that very clearly. I didn't mean that Jews weren't kept as slaves in Egypt at all, just that they weren't enslaved in Egypt to build the pyramids. The three great pyramids were build around 2500 BCE, which is (I believe) well before the Jews came to Egypt, and, as I said, the pharaohs never would have let slaves of any descent work on their tombs. If you like I'll dig up proper evidence, but I'm assuming you just took issue with the idea that Jewish people were never in Egypt at all.

/offtopic.

Cassandra Mortmain:

^Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't word that very clearly. I didn't mean that Jews weren't kept as slaves in Egypt at all, just that they weren't enslaved in Egypt to build the pyramids. The three great pyramids were build around 2500 BCE, which is (I believe) well before the Jews came to Egypt, and, as I said, the pharaohs never would have let slaves of any descent work on their tombs. If you like I'll dig up proper evidence, but I'm assuming you just took issue with the idea that Jewish people were never in Egypt at all.

/offtopic.

Oh, alright. Yeah, I don't think either of us read that very clearly. The Egyptians had Hebrew slaves, but they didn't work on the pyramids. That, I can understand. xD

Oppression olympics, how exciting! /sarcasm

All these debates do is alienate the people who can relate more and therefore feel more passionately about one issue than the other. Even if there was a way to quantify suffering and wrongdoing (which there clearly isn’t, especially because pain is subjective), what would anyone get out of it? Being able to say “Yes! My ancestors suffered more than yours!”? Acknowledging oppression in order to fight it is one thing; comparing it to another form of oppression to decide which one is “worse” is another.

pierrot the clown.:

Oppression olympics, how exciting! /sarcasm

All these debates do is alienate the people who can relate more and therefore feel more passionately about one issue than the other. Even if there was a way to quantify suffering and wrongdoing (which there clearly isn’t, especially because pain is subjective), what would anyone get out of it? Being able to say “Yes! My ancestors suffered more than yours!”? Acknowledging oppression in order to fight it is one thing; comparing it to another form of oppression to decide which one is “worse” is another.

I can't really relate to either. I agree, I don't believe you can compare, and I don't why people have to be making it into a competition, but really what's the point in your statement? It's just a discussion, we're not necessarily planning to fight oppression, it's just people voicing their opinions, why post if you think it's stupid?