Slavery and Segregation vs. Holocaust

Because it's a completely pointless discussion. Nothing will come of this, except perhaps negativity at the expense of the group whose suffering is deemed less traumatic. I don't see how anyone can humanely chose a side in this.

I think that you're going to relate better to the people who suffered who are you're ancestors. Obviously what happened to the slaves in America is horrific, as is any genocide in the world, but as a Jewish Canadian who had extended family members lost in the Holocaust, that one has important meaning.

Also, Ayanasioux, you mentioned a few pages ago that slavery diminished African American self-esteem. While I can't speak for black people, I know that for Jews today, looking back on the Holocaust and the pogroms and everything that's happened hasn't diminished our worth. If anything, it's made my community grow stronger. As a people, we've defied all odds. African Americans have, also. Maybe you're looking at it the wrong way.

As I was reading the board, the song "Imagine" by John Lennon came into my mind, and the idea of seeing things not as Jews, or Blacks, or Asians, or anything of the sort. But as people. And as a human being, you're supposed to feel for your other human beings. At least, that's what I got out of this debate.

pierrot the clown.:

Oppression olympics, how exciting! /sarcasm

All these debates do is alienate the people who can relate more and therefore feel more passionately about one issue than the other. Even if there was a way to quantify suffering and wrongdoing (which there clearly isn’t, especially because pain is subjective), what would anyone get out of it? Being able to say “Yes! My ancestors suffered more than yours!”? Acknowledging oppression in order to fight it is one thing; comparing it to another form of oppression to decide which one is “worse” is another.

I've just realized, I win by far. The communist regime made about four times more victims than the Holocaust and eight times more than the slave trade. And I get extra point because communism isn't recognized as a tragedy of the size of the Holocaust or the slave trade because that's not in the interest of the foreign policy of most Western countries who like Chinese money too much.

If I HAD to choose, I would say the Holocaust, simply because we have blown the slavery thing out of proportion. Slavery was not as prominent as they made it out to be. Only 13% of slaveholders in the United States actually had more than 20 slaves and something like 1/3 didn't even have slaves -- in the South. Not every black person was a slave -- there were some that were free, and many slave owners did not work their slaves to death.

Louisiana was possibly the bloodiest. Sugar was considered a death crop because most slaves were worked the hardest/to death to get sugar. The large plantation owners were known to harm their slaves, but most slave owners were not that way.

The Holocaust harmed Jews in a much more violent and direct manner.

Both were terrible, terrible occurrences. However, if one had to be chosen, in my mere opinion, the Holocaust was worse.

kafka.:

I've just realized, I win by far. The communist regime made about four times more victims than the Holocaust and eight times more than the slave trade. And I get extra point because communism isn't recognized as a tragedy of the size of the Holocaust or the slave trade because that's not in the interest of the foreign policy of most Western countries who like Chinese money too much.

What does communism have to do with it? Regardless of the economic system, dictators have a tendency to kill people. What Joseph Stalin did was just as, if not more unforgivable than Hitler's crimes against humanity.

jheri.:

If I HAD to choose, I would say the Holocaust, simply because we have blown the slavery thing out of proportion. Slavery was not as prominent as they made it out to be. Only 13% of slaveholders in the United States actually had more than 20 slaves and something like 1/3 didn't even have slaves -- in the South. Not every black person was a slave -- there were some that were free, and many slave owners did not work their slaves to death.

1/3 of people didn't have slaves? Well that means that 2/3s did. And considering, as you pointed out, some people had more than 20 slaves, think how many people that is?

Even if they didn't work their slaves to death, slaves still suffered horrifically. Not everyone who went to a concentration camp was immediately gassed, but they still faced a lot of hardship.

LEAF.:

What does communism have to do with it? Regardless of the economic system, dictators have a tendency to kill people. What Joseph Stalin did was just as, if not more unforgivable than Hitler's crimes against humanity.

Stalin didn't just kill people, the communist indoctrination robbed the countries it affect of their cultural identity -to say nothing of the Cultural Revolution, European communist states were forced towards Russification and away from most 19th and 20th high art which was considered bourgeois- and ultimately of their humanity because according to the party philosophy their defining feature is not reason, sensibility or creativity, but the ability to work - that is to be an unthinking machine. Not just Stalin, but the whole political system is guilty of unforgivable crimes.

To add on to what at least one person, and I'm sure others, have said in the course of this topic...
You can't judge tragedies. One can't be...more tragic, or less tragic; they're simply all tragic. Sure, maybe one killed more people than the other...but that's not the only thing that makes a tragedy. Personally, I'm Jewish, so I'm more inclined to see the Holocaust as the biggest tragedy, since it had the greatest personal impact on me. An African American would probably disagree with me, and a Chinese person would probably disagree with them.
What are you even defining as making one tragedy 'worse' than the other? Lives lost? Cultures affected? There are so many things you could list for this, that it makes arguing about it until you put down some guidelines fairly pointless.

Kurtni Klaus:

Because it's a completely pointless discussion. Nothing will come of this, except perhaps negativity at the expense of the group whose suffering is deemed less traumatic. I don't see how anyone can humanely chose a side in this.

It's funny how you say that because when you begin to see some of the things people have to say regarding the discussion, you begin to understand why I created it in the first place. If you read back at my first comment, and then look at some of the other comments, you can see why I asked what I asked. If I were to ask anyone at random, I bet the first thing that would come out of their mouths is The Holocaust.

ayanasioux:

It's funny how you say that because when you begin to see some of the things people have to say regarding the discussion, you begin to understand why I created it in the first place. If you read back at my first comment, and then look at some of the other comments, you can see why I asked what I asked. If I were to ask anyone at random, I bet the first thing that would come out of their mouths is The Holocaust.

I have been looking at the comments, as people try to put one above the other, and I find it pointless and dehumanizing. Are you trying to make the point that people are inherently racist and don't consider black suffering? Someone could say the same about anyone who picked slavery over Jewish suffering, and it would be just as futile.

ayanasioux:

It's funny how you say that because when you begin to see some of the things people have to say regarding the discussion, you begin to understand why I created it in the first place. If you read back at my first comment, and then look at some of the other comments, you can see why I asked what I asked. If I were to ask anyone at random, I bet the first thing that would come out of their mouths is The Holocaust.

I have to say that a huge portion of the people's first statement was actually that it wasn't right to make a choice and it shouldn't be a competition. I haven't seen many people automatically going 'yep, Holocaust wins'. And I agree, the suffering that went on shouldn't be undermined through a 'my ancestors suffered more than yours' styled competition.

However, I don't think this discussion is useless at all. I actually think it's quite interesting because it's become less about 'which is worse' and more about how different/similar their effects were and different ways of looking at it, rather than a petty argument. It's just comparing now, and I don't see the point of people's only input being 'oh this is pointless and no conclusion will be reached'. It's a just discussion, I don't think I've ever seen a final conclusion being reached on any of these topics anyway.

Kurtni Klaus:

I have been looking at the comments, as people try to put one above the other, and I find it pointless and dehumanizing. Are you trying to make the point that people are inherently racist and don't consider black suffering? Someone could say the same about anyone who picked slavery over Jewish suffering, and it would be just as futile.

Not the racist part but more as in guilt interfering with facing the truth.
For instance, The Holocaust took place in Germany years ago and many Germans may get blame towards them because of the things that happened to the Jews during that time (not saying that's what happens) and as humans, we try to excuse guilt or shame by deflecting the truth and trying to sugar coat it. I bet in Germany The Holocaust isn't talked about as much as it is in the US because it took place in Germany regarding Germans. As for slavery in the US took place here so many of the ugly truths about it have been hidden to people that are native here. I've also noticed that many of the people that have stated that they believe The Holocaust was "worse" than slavery and segregation are natives to America as for the people who state that it's ridiculous to compare the two are from other countries.

I believe the reason why many (from what I know of) people in the US believe "The Holocaust" was worse is because here in America the horrors of slavery aren't as vividly expressed. And when white people in America do know the horrors, they take defense because all they know is that their great great great grandfather could have owned a large plantation. Some people try to blame modern day white people for slavery (which I find foolish) and that's another reason why.
Plus it could also be because of racism and some part take a role in that also.

ayanasioux:

Not the racist part but more as in guilt interfering with facing the truth.
For instance, The Holocaust took place in Germany years ago and many Germans may get blame towards them because of the things that happened to the Jews during that time (not saying that's what happens) and as humans, we try to excuse guilt or shame by deflecting the truth and trying to sugar coat it. I bet in Germany The Holocaust isn't talked about as much as it is in the US because it took place in Germany regarding Germans. As for slavery in the US took place here so many of the ugly truths about it have been hidden to people that are native here. I've also noticed that many of the people that have stated that they believe The Holocaust was "worse" than slavery and segregation are natives to America as for the people who state that it's ridiculous to compare the two are from other countries.

I believe the reason why many (from what I know of) people in the US believe "The Holocaust" was worse is because here in America the horrors of slavery aren't as vividly expressed. And when white people in America do know the horrors, they take defense because all they know is that their great great great grandfather could have owned a large plantation. Some people try to blame modern day white people for slavery (which I find foolish) and that's another reason why.
Plus it could also be because of racism and some part take a role in that also.

Err, how do you know where we're all from? :P
Anyways, I'm from the US and I'm of the opinion that you cannot pick between the two.
However, I can sorta see your point. Slavery/Segregation is not discussed here as much, but I feel like that might lead to more lingering guilt, because we definitely learn the American role in it, if nothing else. Same goes for Germans and the Holocaust.
When it's glossed over that seems to imply that there's something to hide...which screams guilt.
People are defensive of their ancestors, though. I'll give you that.
However, I don't think it's fair to classify all Americans (or even just all white Americans) as ignorant and inherently racist. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems to be a facet of your arguement.

No, I'm not saying that they're racist. Its the whole mind game thing of guilt. That's all. And sometimes racism is implanted in you because of your surroundings, what you've been around all your life or what you're influenced by and it's hard to escape from that.

Think at it like this, during slavery (this is what I know of best) in America, many white people were racist towards blacks. I believe in Locke's (I think that's who it is) theory that no man is born bad/ evil but things in his life make him that way. No child is born racist but things in their life make them that way. And after a while, nothing can really change that.

I'm not going to lie, sometimes I find myself having a form of hatred towards white people but it's really hard not to because of how the majority of them treated me and other black people and because of other influences that upset me. It's hard for me to escape it but some things are just the way they are.

Hm, my ancestors were immigrants and didn't have anything to do with slavery.
Just thought I would throw that out there, so there's really no 'getting defensive' because my ancestors might have owned slaves.

You keep mentioning this hate towards white people, and its highly unnecessary to the debate, you could probably do without the comment.

As for your theory that no one can change after a certain amount of time living like that, I'd like to point out the smokers that have smoked for the majority of their lives, or alcoholics, who have changed their ways.

What most people have said on this board is that you can't pick between the two. After debate, if someone picks Holocaust, that's their choice, and it more than likely has nothing to do with them being racist or a 'closest racist.' It probably has more to do with the deaths of the Jews/Jehovah's Witness (of which the black race were included) and the manner in which they died.

And you can't say the brutal truths of racism back in the day aren't expressed ANYWHERE in the US, because my school had us watch a video which showed us the before and after pictures of a young black boy who wolf-whistled at a girl and was savagely beaten and thrown in a river to die. We saw many horrible things, and though you're more than likely just going to brush it off with another statement about how I don't understand, I have the general idea. I wasn't there, and neither were you.

They're both horrible, degrading, shameful events of the past.

I'd have to agree; I'm Jewish, and I lost family members in the Holocaust. However, I do not hate the entire German race. That wouldn't make sense. Even when I'm thinking in pure emotion, I don't hate the entire German race. It's all you can do, to grasp the scope of the tragedy...so why should I waste energy on hate? Hate is what started all this, after all.
Ditto on the ancestors; America is a nation of immigrants. Not a nation of all white people who all have slave owner ancestors.
I feel like the real thing you're debating here is inherent racism, and the debate you've started here was your attempt to prove that we're all inherently racist because we dont agree that slavery and segregation is the biggest tragedy? I don't know, maybe that's a bit more extreme than what you were going for...but it does seem to be something along those lines.

As for guilt, racism, and slavery. I may be white but I feel no guilt, nor racism. I think of all people equal, regardless of ethnicity. Is that really so hard to believe? My ancestors on my father's side were immigrants from Italy that came well after slavery was illegal, as for my mother's side, I don't know if they owned slaves.

The reason I said the Holocaust over slavery is because the manner and scope in which people were killed in the Holocaust. Slaves may have been treated like animals, but the Jews were treated like dirt. Still, it's not an easy thing to compare which is worse. I only rationalized it to add to the discussion of human suffering that is in fact universal.

kafka.:

Stalin didn't just kill people, the communist indoctrination robbed the countries it affect of their cultural identity -to say nothing of the Cultural Revolution, European communist states were forced towards Russification and away from most 19th and 20th high art which was considered bourgeois- and ultimately of their humanity because according to the party philosophy their defining feature is not reason, sensibility or creativity, but the ability to work - that is to be an unthinking machine. Not just Stalin, but the whole political system is guilty of unforgivable crimes.

Satlin did committ a genocide when he rose to power, however, and it claimed more victims than the holocaust.

And if you're going to call that, then what of the Colonial era? All political systems are guilty of unforgiving crimes.

LEAF.:

As for guilt, racism, and slavery. I may be white but I feel no guilt, nor racism. I think of all people equal, regardless of ethnicity. Is that really so hard to believe? My ancestors on my father's side were immigrants from Italy that came well after slavery was illegal, as for my mother's side, I don't know if they owned slaves.

The reason I said the Holocaust over slavery is because the manner and scope in which people were killed in the Holocaust. Slaves may have been treated like animals, but the Jews were treated like dirt. Still, it's not an easy thing to compare which is worse. I only rationalized it to add to the discussion of human suffering that is in fact universal.

kafka.:

Stalin didn't just kill people, the communist indoctrination robbed the countries it affect of their cultural identity -to say nothing of the Cultural Revolution, European communist states were forced towards Russification and away from most 19th and 20th high art which was considered bourgeois- and ultimately of their humanity because according to the party philosophy their defining feature is not reason, sensibility or creativity, but the ability to work - that is to be an unthinking machine. Not just Stalin, but the whole political system is guilty of unforgivable crimes.

Satlin did committ a genocide when he rose to power, however, and it claimed more victims than the holocaust.

And if you're going to call that, then what of the Colonial era? All political systems are guilty of unforgiving crimes.

You and what army? You can't speak for every white American in America.

The whole thing about Satlin is sort of a good example of what I'm talking about. Can you give me some numbers on how many slaves were killed? They weren't counted for because they weren't considered citizens. It's foolish to compare the two death wise and that's why I tried to come at it from a different angle. I mean think about it, over three hundred plus years of blacks being burned, hanged, whipped to death, drowned, shot, and more shit, are you really going to believe that the numbers didn't come even a bit close to the numbers of Jews (and other races, I have to add) over the course of four years?

ayanasioux:

You and what army? You can't speak for every white American in America.

No, I can't. How could I possibly speak for anyone but myself on matters like this? To generalize based on ethnicity like that is the very basis of racism.

ayanasioux:

The whole thing about Satlin is sort of a good example of what I'm talking about. Can you give me some numbers on how many slaves were killed? They weren't counted for because they weren't considered citizens. It's foolish to compare the two death wise and that's why I tried to come at it from a different angle. I mean think about it, over three hundred plus years of blacks being burned, hanged, whipped to death, drowned, shot, and more shit, are you really going to believe that the numbers didn't come even a bit close to the numbers of Jews (and other races, I have to add) over the course of four years?

It's the middle passage that killed the slaves, that, and the treks they undertook in order to reach the coast. The numbers of slaves killed after they were brought to America is negligible compared to that.

It's not basic numbers I'm talking about. African Americans slowly suffered over generations as slaves whereas the Jews were killed in the hundreds every few hours. Yes, the impact slavery and segregation has had on generations is something terrible, but to be killed quickly and systematically, and treated as some kind of man-made product on an assembly line of doom... I even don't know what I can say about that.

LEAF.:

ayanasioux:

You and what army? You can't speak for every white American in America.

No, I can't. How could I possibly speak for anyone but myself on matters like this? To generalize based on ethnicity like that is the very basis of racism.

ayanasioux:

The whole thing about Satlin is sort of a good example of what I'm talking about. Can you give me some numbers on how many slaves were killed? They weren't counted for because they weren't considered citizens. It's foolish to compare the two death wise and that's why I tried to come at it from a different angle. I mean think about it, over three hundred plus years of blacks being burned, hanged, whipped to death, drowned, shot, and more shit, are you really going to believe that the numbers didn't come even a bit close to the numbers of Jews (and other races, I have to add) over the course of four years?

It's the middle passage that killed the slaves, that, and the treks they undertook in order to reach the coast. The numbers of slaves killed after they were brought to America is negligible compared to that.

It's not basic numbers I'm talking about. African Americans slowly suffered over generations as slaves whereas the Jews were killed in the hundreds every few hours. Yes, the impact slavery and segregation has had on generations is something terrible, but to be killed quickly and systematically, and treated as some kind of man-made product on an assembly line of doom... I even don't know what I can say about that.

How is that racist?

The middle passage isn't the only thing that killed them. And how would you know how many slaves died and how they died? It's not talked about like that. And slaves were treated like merchandise or a "man made product". They were bought, sold, breed, all for the work of their master. And you say they weren't treated like "man made product"? Besides, not all of the Jews were killed. Some were forced to work as slaves for the rest of their lives making things like weapons for Nazi's. Sounds kind of familiar right? Only the thing the American slaves were forced to produce were cash crops and do whatever their master forced them to do. Eat what their master forced them to eat (if they could eat), cook what their master forced them to cook, do what ever the master told them to do whether they liked it or not. And if they didn't what to cooperate, do you think they just got away with that? Hell no. Plus, I doubt you can get any numbers of the amounts of slaves that probably died in their masters hands or due to slavery.

So, like I was saying, it's foolish to compare the numbers of deaths caused by the two. Maybe you should look at it from a different angle.