Slavery and Segregation vs. Holocaust

ayanasioux:

How is that racist?

To generalize based on ethnicity. To create a stereotype based on that. That is the foundation of racism.

ayanasioux:

The middle passage isn't the only thing that killed them. And how would you know how many slaves died and how they died? It's not talked about like that. And slaves were treated like merchandise or a "man made product". They were bought, sold, breed, all for the work of their master. And you say they weren't treated like "man made product"? Besides, not all of the Jews were killed. Some were forced to work as slaves for the rest of their lives making things like weapons for Nazi's. Sounds kind of familiar right? Only the thing the American slaves were forced to produce were cash crops and do whatever their master forced them to do. Eat what their master forced them to eat (if they could eat), cook what their master forced them to cook, do what ever the master told them to do whether they liked it or not. And if they didn't what to cooperate, do you think they just got away with that? Hell no. Plus, I doubt you can get any numbers of the amounts of slaves that probably died in their masters hands or due to slavery.

Where I was going with the man-made product phrase was the way in which the German extermination camps functioned. They were synonymous with industrial factories, only instead of creating consumer products in mass numbers, they killed quickly and efficiently, to the point where it is completely devoid of humanity. African-American slaves suffered too, I know that, but not to the degree of the people who endured the holocaust.

ayanasioux:

So, like I was saying, it's foolish to compare the numbers of deaths caused by the two. Maybe you should look at it from a different angle.

Actually... there are numbers tallying the death rates of slaves. There were about 2 million slaves who died during the middle passage, and an estimate on the amount of deaths concerning slavery from 1500 to 1900 totals to around 4 million, versus the Holocaust, which claimed between 11 and 17 million people over the course of 4 years. There's a big difference in numbers there.

^ What? Why couldn't it just be called a stereotype then? (which it isn't because I believe I claimed some white people may fell guilt) How the hell is it racism? What is your definition of racism anyway?

And when slavery in America took place and The Holocaust are two different time frames, don't you think the deaths of them would be different?

And I highly doubt those numbers are legit at all. Like I've expressed before, they weren't even considered citizens. What's the number of all the people that died that weren't counted for, can you answer that? I believe there was more than one slave ship also... like I said, it's foolish to compare the two death wise.

Let's take this back all the way from the top. The main reason I made this post is for one of a few reasons. One, to hear most of ya'll say exactly what I knew most of you all would say, that The Holocaust was worse. Then I wanted to hear the excuses and justifications that I know I was going to hear...

But the biggest thing was I wanted you all to take out the death factor for a minute because it's kind of pointless to compare to two (for one some African American's wanted to be dead whether than put up with their master's shit) and I wanted you all to SEE IT FROM A DIFFERENT ANGLE.

Take out the death factor, could you, and tell me, which do any of you all think suffered the most damage and why? WITHOUT the death factor, I feel I have to repeat that. I have a feeling that most wouldn't be able to answer this question.

ayanasioux:

And I highly doubt those numbers are legit at all. Like I've expressed before, they weren't even considered citizens. What's the number of all the people that died that weren't counted for, can you answer that? I believe there was more than one slave ship also... like I said, it's foolish to compare the two death wise.

Well, who's to say that all the deaths of the Holocaust were accounted for? They burned most of the bodies, maybe the number is greater. If you want to take the death factor out, why are you still trying to assert that there were more slave deaths. The numbers say you're wrong. I'm sorry. There have been studies, and your opinion (while it is your opinion, and no one can change that without your permission) doesn't match up with those studies. You can claim they're false until they're blue in the face, but most people are still going to side with the numbers. You appear to be very biased on the subject, and that might contribute to you being so defensive. Why you would want there to be more deaths of slaves, I'll never know.

ayanasioux:

Then I wanted to hear the excuses and justifications that I know I was going to hear...

We've given you facts, not excuses.

ayanasioux:

Take out the death factor, could you, and tell me, which do any of you all think suffered the most damage and why? WITHOUT the death factor, I feel I have to repeat that. I have a feeling that most wouldn't be able to answer this question.

Well, without the death factor, they're the exact same thing, except there are MORE Holocaust victims.
They were BOTH forced to work against their will.

One thing I find particularly... bold, from your post is that you said many slaves would rather die than put up with their master's shit. Do you think the Jews and other 'undesirables' did nothing but picnic and skip and be merry?
Like I said before, you're biased. You've expressed yourself in ways that make you out to be biased, and if you aren't, then maybe you could try to explain your views a bit more clearly. I understand you take the suffering of your ancestors very seriously, but I can't take your claims of hating racism seriously because you express a hatred for the white race that is unfair. Yes, it is unfair, no matter how many white people have treated you poorly.

^ What does the number of slaves have to do with anything I want? what I'm trying to say is that it's foolish to compare the two death wise so I wanted people to look at it FROM A DIFFERENT ANGLE.

And you're right, I should have put that in there about the Jews (and others) also but it slipped my mind for a moment.

And I find it hilarious when people make judgments about me because nine times out of ten, they're so wrong.

And where do you think my feelings of ill-will came from? The thin air? If racism never occurred with most of the white people I've encountered in my life towards me, I'd love everybody. I used to lie to myself and say I loved everybody when I was in the ninth grade, but that was before I knew the ugly truth (and I'm not just talking about shit in the past). What if I told you every white person has been horrible to me? (Which isn't true) what the hell do people want me to think about white people, that they're wonderful people if all they've been doing is putting me in the dirt? I can't comprehend that logic.

My best friend is white. I've said that many times before in many other posts but I've never expressed what I feel about her (no homo) because I'm not good with all of that sensitive, lovey junk. But she's the best friend I've ever had and probably will ever have. Although her father is racist (v_v) I'm glad none of that rubbed off on her and if it did, I really can't see it at all. If I ever need anything from her, she'd be their quicker than any other friend and it's vise-versa.

So, I don't need anyone telling me what the hell I am and what the hell I'm not because I know who I am and ya'll just seem to know who I'm not. You don't see me telling you what you are do you? I know know you for dip-shit so you won't hear me tagging you.

So could you please just be here for the debate and cut all of that judgmental bullshit? Racism is also a part of judging and although you might not (want to) believe it, I hate racism.

Mkay. You're telling the person above you to be here for the debate, and just the debate....when you aren't doing that. You've very distinctly brought your personal biases and hangups into this, and you're acting like this thread is just a way to justify your apparent dislike of white people. 'Picking' the Holocaust over slavery doesn't make you racist, nor does it mean you don't see it as a tragedy. (And I put picking in quotation marks because I still believe that it's ridiculous to try and compare the two.)
And I could apply the argument you're pushing on everyone else tp you by saying that becaus you picked slavery, you're racist against me because I'm Jewish.
I'm not going to do that, because I find it a bit irrational.
Yes, if you forced me to pick, I would pick the Holocaust.
No, that does not mean I believe slavery/segregation aren't equally tragic; the Holocaust simply affected my life more.
Which is why making people pick isn't a good way to go about this, because they will generally pick based on which had a greater impact on them personally. They migh support that with fact, but they will forever be biased by their personal lives.
So let me ask you this; looking at this issue without your upbringing, just simple fact, would you be able to choose one and prove in a scientific fashion that it was the greater tragedy? I don't think that's possible.
There are just too many factors to look at it that way...and obviously, the emotional way isn't working because you really can't sway people's personal biases. I'm Jewish; you probably can't get me to agree that slavery was worse even if you could scientifically prove it. You're African American (I'm assuming, correct me if I'm wrong): I probably can't get you to agree that the Holocaust was worse even if I could scientifically prove it.

^I'm black and I'm proud.

Actually, I'm telling the person above not to judge me which isn't something I'm doing. My personal examples and others are okay with me, I just don't like people telling me that I'm biased or telling me who and/ or what I am. I'm actually tired of the word biased because people are using it out of contents.

And what you said sort of makes that a hypercritical statement. You said that no matter what I tell you, you wouldn't believe that slavery in America was worse than The Holocaust and yet you're calling me biased? I'm not being biased on the matter, I have reasons to why I said what I've said.

Let's have a little discussion. I'm not trying to persuade you to believing anything or disprove your beliefs, I just want to have a discussion, if that's okay with you. All I want to know is your reasons to why, if you had to chose, you think The Holocaust was worse than slavery in America.

^Ah, but see, that was my point. You're biased, I'm biased, everyone is freakin' biased because this isn't a debate that can be proved scientifically, so it falls to people's biases. Therefore, it's not really a valid debate, and it's kind of impossible to 'prove' either of these worse. They're both tragedies; that's where I leave it.
I said that if I had to choose and neither was not an opinion, then yes I would pick the Holocaust. Why? Because I'm Jewish. Disregarding all the facts I could bring up, disregarding the death toll, disregarding all that...the Holocaust has had the biggest impact on my life, and therefore it is what I automatically choose.
What I disagreed with, with your arguement, was that you were saying that because the majority of people picked the Holocaust, they must think that slavery/segragation isn't important all all, and that proves people are inherently racist against blacks...which is simply not true. I was also pointing out that I could flip that on you by saying that because you chose slavery/segragation, then you're 'racist' against Jews.
There are really no reasons for this that don't come down to pure bias and emotion, which you can't debate rationally about.

Yes, that's fine with me :) I apologize for my bluntness in advance, but that is truly what I believe your arguement is driving at and it's something I highly disagree with...mainly because I used to think in a similar vein about Germans and I've realized what an...unfair viewpoint that was.

sunsetwing:

either was not an opinion, then yes I would pick the Holocaust. Why? Because I'm Jewish. Disregarding all the facts I could bring up, disregarding the death toll, disregarding all that...the Holocaust has had the biggest impact on my life, and therefore it is what I automatically choose.
What I disagreed with, with your arguement, was that you were saying that because the majority of people picked the Holocaust, they must think that slavery/segragation isn't important all all, and that proves people are inherently racist against blacks...which is simply not true. I was also pointing out that I could flip that on you by saying that because you chose slavery/segragation, then you're 'racist' against Jews.
There are really no reasons for this that don't come down to pure bias and emotion, which you can't debate rationally about.

Well, that's an assumption right? Wouldn't you think it would be better for you to get to know me before you make that assumption?

sunsetwing:

Yes, that's fine with me :) I apologize for my bluntness in advance, but that is truly what I believe your arguement is driving at and it's something I highly disagree with...mainly because I used to think in a similar vein about Germans and I've realized what an...unfair viewpoint that was.

I understand what you're saying. And I like bluntness.

The reason why I said I believed that slavery was worse had nothing to do with the deaths. It was the damages. Over the three centuries of slavery the minds of many black people have changed. I mean, I live around a lot of black people and it's just so far from how blacks were before slavery that I can't believe it. It's almost as if many of the black Americans are a different type of black people. Half of them deny the obvious fact that their ancestors were African. African traditions are lost from them, language, names, culture, almost everything. The word nigga floats all over to damn place because of it and the word reflects how a lot of them act. I guess it kind of breaks my heart

From what I know of Jews they still know their language and where they're from, the holidays they practice, of course their religion. Plus, I mostly consider Judaism to be not too much more than a religion. But if you want to consider Hebrews to come from the Jewish race, then you can say that.

I have nothing against Jews at all. I don't know too many. I know one and they're really cool, that's all I know of though. I have nothing against you either. My dislike for certain white people isn't as generalized as many people (on this site) think. It's actually more like a feeling towards many of them. I understand why people are upset about it but only if they were in my shoes. Sounds like you've been there before, sunsetwing. I think you can kind of understand my feelings and it's not like I'm like that for no reason at all. I try to find good in all people but once I've seen that little bit of prejudice in a white person, well any person but I see it more in whites, that's when I get upset and feel resentment.

ayanasioux:

I have nothing against Jews at all. I don't know too many. I know one and they're really cool, that's all I know of though. I have nothing against you either. My dislike for certain white people isn't as generalized as many people (on this site) think. It's actually more like a feeling towards many of them. I understand why people are upset about it but only if they were in my shoes. Sounds like you've been there before, sunsetwing. I think you can kind of understand my feelings and it's not like I'm like that for no reason at all. I try to find good in all people but once I've seen that little bit of prejudice in a white person, well any person but I see it more in whites, that's when I get upset and feel resentment.

And I understand your resentment, and I understand what you're saying...and what I'm trying to say is that that, inherent racism and biases, is what you're really talking about in this debate, not what's the bigger tragedy. The bigger tragedy question was just a springboard for your point. If you want to create a different thread about inherent racism and such, you might get better results :)

ayanasioux:

Well, that's an assumption right? Wouldn't you think it would be better for you to get to know me before you make that assumption?

Mmm...no, I think it's a fair assumption because I read through 12 or 13 pages of this debate before I jumped into it, and that showcased your viewpoint rather clearly. It also seemed to be an assumption that you were making, so...

ayanasioux:

The reason why I said I believed that slavery was worse had nothing to do with the deaths. It was the damages. Over the three centuries of slavery the minds of many black people have changed. I mean, I live around a lot of black people and it's just so far from how blacks were before slavery that I can't believe it. It's almost as if many of the black Americans are a different type of black people. Half of them deny the obvious fact that their ancestors were African. African traditions are lost from them, language, names, culture, almost everything. The word nigga floats all over to damn place because of it and the word reflects how a lot of them act. I guess it kind of breaks my heart.
From what I know of Jews they still know their language and where they're from, the holidays they practice, of course their religion. Plus, I mostly consider Judaism to be not too much more than a religion. But if you want to consider Hebrews to come from the Jewish race, then you can say that.

Judiasm is a culture, just as much as a religion. I'm agnostic, but I still fully consider myself Jewish in the cultural sense. And yeah, I think our culture was damaged...it generally is when an insane man unleaches a genocide on your culture. After the Holocaust, my great grandmother refused to speak Polish. She refused to talk about her family, and she didn't participate in Hanukkah or anything like that.
She was the only member of her family to survive. The stigma definitely remains, trust me...especially as the last Holocaust survivors start to die out and the fear that it will be forgotten or denied swells.
However, that's not to say your culture wasn't just as damaged, and that's kinda what I'm getting at. You can measure deaths, but you can't measure the emotional damage it's done. There's simply no way...which means you can't compare these tragedies because the factors you want to use to compare them are immeasurable. The arguement becomes pointless as well as completly based on emotion...and both sides end up upset/mad.

I understand that you're upset about racism, and that's completly understandable. I will fully admit that I've seen racist people...but I will not draw the conclusion that people are inherently racist just because they believe something else is a bigger tragedy.
Which is why I suggested creating another thread about inherent racism/biases and leaving this be, because I really do believe that that is what you're getting at here...and it's definitely a topic that can be and should be talked about.
Do you get what I mean?

Okay, I'm going to flat out tell you that your assumptions are wrong. I don't think that the people who said that The Holocaust was worst are racist or anything like that. Sometimes I just get jealous. I'm not going to lie. I hear all of these Holocaust stories and about how bad it is but never do I hear about stories of oppressed black people. I hear people say "Oh, they talk about slavery all the time" but not to the same extinct they don't. Where's our stories at? They're buried under a stack of lies and other BS.

But I won't argue this with you anymore, if that's what you would like. You seem like a person that would be cool if I got to know you so I'm going to let it drop right here.

Oh and the idea of the new forum thing was smart but if I make that, it would just all end up in the same place. You should see the other forums I've created regarding race and the things they've said.

Actually, I just checked out the racism thread :P
Mmm...well, I appreciate the concern for my feelings and thank you, you seem like a cool person too.
If that's not what you're arguing though, then what are you arguing? Like...what do you want to prove with this, if it's not inherent racism? I'm totally fine with being wrong, but I'd like to know what the right answer is.
Then I'd be fine with dropping it :)

Well at first it was for self appeasement of proving that most people would favor The Holocaust over slavery. Then it turned to getting people to see how I feel (which was sort of pointless) then I just wanted people to know that everything isn't what it seems to be, if that makes sense.

ayanasioux:

^ What? Why couldn't it just be called a stereotype then? (which it isn't because I believe I claimed some white people may fell guilt) How the hell is it racism? What is your definition of racism anyway?

A stereotype is the basis for racism. A racist person is someone who takes a look at a certain ethnic group and says "I hate them". Why do they hate them, though? It's not a blind hate. It's founded on personal reasons, many of which are founded on stereotypes, because it's impossible to hate an entire race of people when you only really know a few people with that skin color. It requires that generalization of people with stereotypes, to transform a hatred of a few people, to their entire ethnic group.

ayanasioux:

And when slavery in America took place and The Holocaust are two different time frames, don't you think the deaths of them would be different?

The deaths are very different. I thought I established that. Slaves were beaten, lynched, and died of starvation and illness. The victims of the Holocaust were sent into gas chambers filled with cyanide, shot, and burned alive.

ayanasioux:

And I highly doubt those numbers are legit at all. Like I've expressed before, they weren't even considered citizens. What's the number of all the people that died that weren't counted for, can you answer that? I believe there was more than one slave ship also... like I said, it's foolish to compare the two death wise.

They weren't considered citizens, no, but they were considered property. Slaves were counted like a rich businessman counts his money. The numbers are accurate. It was a business venture, of course the "products" and "sales" and "losses" are tallied. It also wasn't profitable to kill slaves, which is why the amount of deaths is small compared to the Holocaust. They didn't want to kill them, they wanted them to work for them.

ayanasioux:

But the biggest thing was I wanted you all to take out the death factor for a minute because it's kind of pointless to compare to two (for one some African American's wanted to be dead whether than put up with their master's shit) and I wanted you all to SEE IT FROM A DIFFERENT ANGLE.

Why is it pointless, exactly? Your argument isn't making a lot of sense, saying that death doesn't matter because death doesn't include attempted suicides due to mistreatment? Those both would fall under the topic of death, and it wouldn't be unheard of for a slave to do just that.

ayanasioux:

Take out the death factor, could you, and tell me, which do any of you all think suffered the most damage and why? WITHOUT the death factor, I feel I have to repeat that. I have a feeling that most wouldn't be able to answer this question.

Which is worse, though? To wish to be dead because you could be better off, or to wish that you could stay alive? I'm going to say the latter, which is why I think the Holocaust was worse.

Okay, I'd advise you to read the comments I posted towards sunsetwing because I'm becoming lazy and you commented on too many things that I also have comments on.

ayanasioux:

Well at first it was for self appeasement of proving that most people would favor The Holocaust over slavery. Then it turned to getting people to see how I feel (which was sort of pointless) then I just wanted people to know that everything isn't what it seems to be, if that makes sense.

Fair enough, and yes, it does make sense. I guess I was only partially right; I did guess that you wanted to prove something about people picking the Holocaust.
This was an...educational debate, so thank you :)

sunsetwing:

Fair enough, and yes, it does make sense. I guess I was only partially right; I did guess that you wanted to prove something about people picking the Holocaust.
This was an...educational debate, so thank you :)

No problem. That's what I'm good for.

They're both such sensitive and horrible topics. Both were times of great suffering.
I can't say which I feel is worse, but slavery lasted a very long time compared to the holocaust.

^ You're a first.

I think it's a bit odd to compare different times in our world's sick twisted history to other times. I think it depends on that persons own opinion along with their beliefs and knowledge of history

I personally think they were both horrible times in history.

If I had to decide which one was worse in my opinion, I would probably go with the holocaust. It involved trying to destroy a whole race of people along with other other groups of people. They were also treated horribly even if they weren't killed.

Also, slavery was horrible but people didn't just take their lives away or keep them trapped in a camp. There were good slave owners.