Slavery and Segregation vs. Holocaust

I would probably say Holocaust because despite the slaves being worked off their arses, the Jews, once they were taken away from their homes, didn't have much escape and died. Children too and babies too. Their lives were cut short whereas slaves had about half a century to escape their predicament.

Brianna Marie:

I would probably say Holocaust because despite the slaves being worked off their arses, the Jews, once they were taken away from their homes, didn't have much escape and died. Children too and babies too. Their lives were cut short whereas slaves had about half a century to escape their predicament.

I wish I could change what I said about this topic the first time.

Which do you think did the most damage though, and why?

As most people have already said, comparing the two is pointless--they were both terrible crimes against humanity and it's practically impossible to asses which was more "damaging". While the numbers of Africans affected by slave trade is technically higher, that by no means proves that their suffering was worse. And the fact that the Holocaust generated horrific footage of Jewish suffering that by no means proves that their suffering was worse. The two are entirely different situations and both have proven to have a huge impact on world history. But no one was more damaging than the other. A murder is a murder. A genocide is a genocide. I don't personally believe in "levels" of crimes against humanity. They're all equally as horrific.

engine:

As most people have already said, comparing the two is pointless--they were both terrible crimes against humanity and it's practically impossible to asses which was more "damaging". While the numbers of Africans affected by slave trade is technically higher, that by no means proves that their suffering was worse. And the fact that the Holocaust generated horrific footage of Jewish suffering that by no means proves that their suffering was worse. The two are entirely different situations and both have proven to have a huge impact on world history. But no one was more damaging than the other. A murder is a murder. A genocide is a genocide. I don't personally believe in "levels" of crimes against humanity. They're all equally as horrific.

I believe two tragic events can have different levels of damage.

ayanasioux:

I believe two tragic events can have different levels of damage.

Damage to what exactly?

engine:

Damage to what exactly?

State of mind. How one thinks about themselves and people like them.

ayanasioux:

State of mind. How one thinks about themselves and people like them.

So you're arguing that slavery was more damaging to the collective African American psyche than the Holocaust was to the Jewish one? But, not being Jewish, how would you know what their state of mind is?

engine:

So you're arguing that slavery was more damaging to the collective African American psyche than the Holocaust was to the Jewish one? But, not being Jewish, how would you know what their state of mind is?

Did I say that, or did I just say "I think one could be more damaging than the other"?

ayanasioux:

Did I say that, or did I just say "I think one could be more damaging than the other"?

But in previous posts, you've made it pretty clear that you think slavery was worse.

engine:

But in previous posts, you've made it pretty clear that you think slavery was worse.

I could have had a change of thought. Those were about a year old. But before I answer that question I know you're going to ask, I'll ask this of you first.

How many African Americans that you know of still celebrate or know about holidays from their African culture?
And many Jews that you know of still celebrate or know about holidays from their Jewish culture?

ayanasioux:

I could have had a change of thought. Those were about a year old. But before I answer that question I know you're going to ask, I'll ask this of you first.

How many African Americans that you know of still celebrate or know about holidays from their African culture?
And many Jews that you know of still celebrate or know about holidays from their Jewish culture?

In my opinion, it's all about how invested you are in continuing to recognize your culture. Both African Americans and Jews had to go through a hell of a lot to figure out their history because of information lost during their respective genocides. Granted, it is easier for Jews to do so because of the recentness of the Holocaust, and considering it was a time when photographs, etc. were available. It was easier to record and keep track of information. That being said, I know quite a few Jews who do not know anything of their heritage aside from being Jewish because their family never was able to track down lost information. And I know quite a few African Americans who have looked into investigating their genealogy and are very proud of it. And I know several more who, not knowing their exact heritage, still choose to recognize their African culture and practice the holidays.

engine:

In my opinion, it's all about how invested you are in continuing to recognize your culture. Both African Americans and Jews had to go through a hell of a lot to figure out their history because of information lost during their respective genocides. Granted, it is easier for Jews to do so because of the recentness of the Holocaust, and considering it was a time when photographs, etc. were available. It was easier to record and keep track of information. That being said, I know quite a few Jews who do not know anything of their heritage aside from being Jewish because their family never was able to track down lost information. And I know quite a few African Americans who have looked into investigating their genealogy and are very proud of it. And I know several more who, not knowing their exact heritage, still choose to recognize their African culture and practice the holidays.

I just wanted a simple answer. I have a line of questions I want to ask.

How many African Americans do you know of that still have African last or first names, or both?
How many Jews do you know of that have their last, first or both names that are Jewish?

ayanasioux:

I just wanted a simple answer. I have a line of questions I want to ask.

How many African Americans do you know of that still have African last or first names, or both?
How many Jews do you know of that have their last, first or both names that are Jewish?

I don't see how that's relevant at all--who people decide to take the last name of at marriage has nothing to with how proud they are of their culture or how much it was damaged. As for African Americans who have lost their traditional African surnames in order to "Americanize" themselves, the same has happened to countless cultures when coming to America. My grandfather was forced to change both his first and last name when he immigrated from Russia, as were many other immigrants, including those of Jewish decent. I'm only not answering these questions directly to show you that the things you claim to be indicators of "suffering" or "damage" have happened to people of all cultures, not just African Americans. This by no means means that the African suffering was not great and terrible, it just means that no other culture's suffering was any less.

To answer your last question, I know probably about 15 African Americans (second or third generation Africans, so I don't know if that "counts" in your book) with traditional African surnames. I'd say I know about 20 Jewish Americans with traditional Jewish last names. So not that big of a difference. In fact, most of the Jews I know have very American last names--Stewart, Smith, Jonhson, etc.

engine:

I don't see how that's relevant at all--who people decide to take the last name of at marriage has nothing to with how proud they are of their culture or how much it was damaged. As for African Americans who have lost their traditional African surnames in order to "Americanize" themselves, the same has happened to countless cultures when coming to America. My grandfather was forced to change both his first and last name when he immigrated from Russia, as were many other immigrants, including those of Jewish decent. I'm only not answering these questions directly to show you that the things you claim to be indicators of "suffering" or "damage" have happened to people of all cultures, not just African Americans. This by no means means that the African suffering was not great and terrible, it just means that no other culture's suffering was any less.

To answer your last question, I know probably about 15 African Americans (second or third generation Africans, so I don't know if that "counts" in your book) with traditional African surnames. I'd say I know about 20 Jewish Americans with traditional Jewish last names. So not that big of a difference. In fact, most of the Jews I know have very American last names--Stewart, Smith, Jonhson, etc.

I think you're completely missing the whole point here. Those people give themselves American names. Most of us don't know it. It's something you'd have to dig deep to uncover. I've talked to countless foreigners and people who's parents are foreigners and they give themselves American names, it's even written on the roster. But their real names are different. I knew this one girl who said her name was Claire but her real name is Shana. I didn't know that until I saw it on her facebook.

What I'm saying is that with African Americans... you know what, nevermind. I'm not mentally ready for this at the moment, maybe a comment or two later. I have to set up what I'm going to say and all or else it'll just turn to an endless debate until I decide to drop out (which is what usually happens) so just hang in there with me.

And you're making that assumption again without even thinking about what I'm saying. You're assuming that I'm siding for African Americans so you're getting really defensive without even considering the points I'm trying to make.

ayanasioux:

I think you're completely missing the whole point here. Those people give themselves American names. Most of us don't know it. It's something you'd have to dig deep to uncover. I've talked to countless foreigners and people who's parents are foreigners and they give themselves American names, it's even written on the roster. But their real names are different. I knew this one girl who said her name was Claire but her real name is Shana. I didn't know that until I saw it on her facebook.

Many people do choose to make American names. And many of them were forced to. My grandfather was given a new first and last name when he immigrated here. As were many other immigrants. Some of their names were just altered to sound more "American" but that doesn't change the fact that they were stripped of their original names.

And I don't think I'm really missing the point. Naming is a huge part of culture and identity and self-worth, you're entirely right. And many people, not just African Americans, choose to give themselves new names after immigrating rather than taking their given name, because they find it more empowering. And I think that is a sign or power, not weakness or "damage". The fact that you understand what you've been through, what has been taken from you, and you are strong enough to take it back for yourself--that's something amazing that all groups who have experienced oppression and suffering can understand and appreciate.

ayanasioux:

And you're making that assumption again without even thinking about what I'm saying. You're assuming that I'm siding for African Americans so you're getting really defensive without even considering the points I'm trying to make.

You're right, I am making that assumption. But I am assuming based on past posts that would, in most cases, suggest that you do in fact believe the damage done by slavery to the African American psyche was worse than any other genocide was to other cultures'. And I don't believe I'm getting very defensive at all, because I don't believe that one was worse than the other. And I believe I have both considered and addressed each point you have made. Whether I have come to a conclusion which you might deem adequate, that's another thing.

Note: Please read all of this through before you comment.

No, I think you are still missing the point. I'll break it down. But your assumption is right. And no one said anything about genocides to other cultures, so please don't toss that in there.

You said your grandfather was forced to change his name when he immigrated? Did the name not still stay with him? He was aware of his name and culture still, that did not change. He still knew where his family came from, family names, I'm assuming, traditions of his culture and all that good stuff.

But the case with African Americans is different. Remember now, slavery in America lasted for about two centuries, then another century of segregation. So that's three hundred centuries of loads of crap, I'll get into the crap piece by piece.

But I'll start from the beginning, because this story is important to me. When enslaved Africans were first shipped here, not only where they stripped of their names, they were stripped from their cultures (in the latter) stripped of their religion and forced to follow whatever traditions, cultures, beliefs and names the slave masters gave them. Now, although this is just the first step and they are still aware of their names, cultures and etc., remember, this is only the beginning.

After years of slavery, human nature takes a toll on the white slave masters minds causing them to feel superior over blacks. Because of this, dehumanization was created by them towards Africans. Because Africans are so much different from Europeans, this dehumanization was much greater than that of Jews. This dehumanization also created oppression and inferiority. What does that make black people think? I can tell you first hand because I'll admit I once felt this way. It makes us think lower of ourselves in our consciousness', of course being stronger during that time period. That means we consciously begin to hate the texture of our hair, the darkness of our skin, darkness of our eyes, differences in our facial features and anything dealing with our race. This causes us to want to be the people who were supposed to be "better" than us. This causes issues later on, but I won't get into that yet. And remember, this is happening over the course of three hundred years. After three hundred years of assimilating to White, European American culture, where do you think our identities (cultures, names, religions, etc.) have gone? That was pretty much gone three generations into slavery.

This is also where the infamous word used among many African Americans today came from, nigga. A Jewish kid once asked me, "Why do black people call each other niggas if they don't want anyone else to call them that?" Why? It's the ultimate racial question among people I know today. It's because during slavery, we were called niggers. The term was used so much towards our ancestors, that even they began calling themselves the word out of hatred (in most cases) of their own people. Hatred formed by dehumanization, oppression and all that other bad stuff. And the name wasn't just used during slavery, it was used many years after it also. It's almost like you being born and someone calling you a name since you can remember. What else do you know to call yourself? When someone says "Ayana", I know they're talking to me because that's how people address me. If the slave masters of the past called our ancestors "nigger" we are going to respond to that because that's what we know of. It's imprinted in our minds and we even upset ourselves sometimes for using the word. I use it myself quiet often, I'll be completely honest with you. It's not that I like it, but it's almost inevitable (I sometimes say negro, which I think is better)

So, we're back to the present. The oppression we felt, and still feel all over the god damn globe, still lingers in the back of our minds. We are still niggers in the eyes of many. We don't like our kinky hair because it's bad, we avoid the sun because being dark is bad, dark eyes aren't as pleasurable. We want to be who we're not. In the back of our minds we were cursed with being BLACK and being BLACK is bad. Escaping the blackness is good. I believe a whole lot of this has to do with slavery in America and slavery in other countries where Africans were enslaved.

And you have to also remember that much of the truth and ugliness about slavery is sugar-coated in text books. It's not like people didn't kill black people. Have you heard of the KKK? They still exist today. And in the past, people burned slaves, hung them, raped women, tortured them, cut parts of their bodies off, killed their children, sold their children and their family, sexual harassed woman, shot them dead, cut their feet and hands off, put large things on their heads so the master could know if they were trying to escape, the notorious whipping sometimes till death, worked them to death, had them living in fucked up living conditions that caused their death, all kinds up fucked up shit that's even hard for me to put down. Some rather die than to live in these conditions. Enslaved blacks DID commit suicide and quite often, you know.

So, often times I get upset when people say "Why are you so worked up about slavery? It happened years ago." It's because that shit is still affecting our community TODAY, and the damage seems like it's taking an eternity to heal. We do not know who we are anymore. Erykah Badu says it the best, "We don't know our language, we don't know our god, we take what we're given, even when it feels odd" from The Healer and "If we were made in his image then call us by our names," from On and On.

And remember, it's been four centuries without our identities. All we have is our traits to identify ourselves. All I know is that my great grandfather was Scottish. I speak only English, born and raised for ten years in Maryland, and I'm still finding myself.

So, that is why I feel the damage done by The Holocaust cannot even come close to comparison to the damage caused by slavery in American and segregation in America. The Holocaust lasted for four years, not nearly enough to cause them to almost completely lose their identities.

That's why I can be bitter sometimes (if you pay close attention to my posts regarding race) and why I can have "too much pride" because our pride is destroyed.

I do not disagree with much of what you said, because I understand the brutality of the African suffering, except for this:

ayanasioux:

You said your grandfather was forced to change his name when he immigrated? Did the name not still stay with him? He was aware of his name and culture still, that did not change. He still knew where his family came from, family names, I'm assuming, traditions of his culture and all that good stuff.

When Africans first were shipped to America, they still knew their names, their gods, their cultures, etc. Things are always lost over generations, that's nothing new. We now live in an age when technology prevents that, but I can guarantee you any immigrant who came to America at the same time those Africans did--after 300 years, their decedents probably know about as much as their culture as African Americans do.

ayanasioux:

After years of slavery, human nature takes a toll on the white slave masters minds causing them to feel superior over blacks. Because of this, dehumanization was created by them towards Africans. Because Africans are so much different from Europeans, this dehumanization was much greater than that of Jews. This dehumanization also created oppression and inferiority.

How exactly do you measure dehumanization. Nazi's thought they were vastly superior over Jews, so that's the same as whites and Africans. Jews were forced to work, to separate from their families, they were tortured, raped, brutally murdered, publicly humiliated--all that happened to Africans. They were denied identities and given numbers instead. Just like Africans were stripped of their names. They were forbidden from practicing their religion like Africans had to assimilate to Christianity. There's a lot of the same stuff going on here, and yet you insist that the dehumanization blacks experienced was worse. Why?

ayanasioux:

The Holocaust lasted for four years, not nearly enough to cause them to almost completely lose their identities.

And yet, many of them did. How do you explain that. You're saying that 4 years of oppression isn't enough, when compared to slavery/segregation. But what I'm confused is why you're limiting it to the Holocaust--because slavery and segregation isn't nearly as narrow. I could limit African suffering to the Triangle Trade, but you'd argue that only gives a glimpse at their suffering. Which is right. The same goes for Jews. They'd be persecuted for years. In Egypt, in Spain, in Germany even prior to the Holocaust. It happened for centuries just like African suffering did. So how are we supposed to go about comparing them? The pride you feel was stripped from your culture--the same thing happened to them. How is the measurable? Why does one person's suffering make another's any less? It doesn't. It's silly and naive and petty to think that it would.

^ So you're going to compare 300 years to 4? Also, I don't know what the triangle trade is, and if you told me, I know I wouldn't excuse it just because I'm black. I also feel that Jews don't feel nearly as much inferiority as African Americans. Look at it this way...

You got a guy that comes from a Jewish family and he has lost his Jewish name. His name is John now. He has dirty blond hair, gray eyes and white skin. He lives in a place filled with white people that are racist to Jews and blacks. But he doesn't practice his culture, religion or any of the traditions.

Then you have an African American guy. He lost his African name centuries ago. His name is Marcus. He has a small afro going on, dark brown eyes and dark brown skin. He lives in a place filled with white people that are racist to Jews and blacks. But he doesn't practice any African holidays, traditional religions, cultures or anything.

Of the two, who do you think will receive the most feelings of inferiority? John probably looks like most of the people he lives around. Marcus looks nothing like the people he lives around. Who do you think feels more discrimination?

I am not having these opinions because I'm black, and I'm not excusing anyone's suffering. All I am saying is that of the two, one of them did more damage, in my opinion.

How about you do this for me, because I'm done with telling people what I'VE witnessed. Now I don't know where you live, the amount of black people that live around you, or how those black people are around you, but I want you to listen very closely for about a week or two (and I'm not talking about what you've done before, I'm talking about now) to the conversations amongst black people. Talk to them yourself. Comment on their hair, your hair to them. If they're wearing colored contacts, ask them why. If you ever see a black person avoiding the sun (something you'll probably see the most) ask them why they're doing that. If they say "because I'll get darker (which they probably will)" ask them why does it matter if they get darker. Ask them about their culture. Even bring up the topic about Africans to them and see what they think. See what they say ABOUT Africa. Ask them if they like their skin color and why they do or don't. Ask them how they feel about dark skinned black people, then light skinned black people. Try to understand how they feel about themselves. But don't make it obvious that you're quizzing them. Take down notes on some of their responses, reactions and feelings, like, literally write it down.

Until then, this conversation/ debate is over. When you do that, then we can talk.

ayanasioux:

^ So you're going to compare 300 years to 4? Also, I don't know what the triangle trade is, and if you told me, I know I wouldn't excuse it just because I'm black.

No. I'm not--I clearly said the Jewish suffering/oppression isn't limited to four years. That'd be like limiting African suffering to the triangle (or Atlantic slave) trade. Which is wrong. I don't understand why you're only talking about one peice of Jewish history when compared to a huge chunk of African.

ayanasioux:

You got a guy that comes from a Jewish family and he has lost his Jewish name. His name is John now. He has dirty blond hair, gray eyes and white skin. He lives in a place filled with white people that are racist to Jews and blacks. But he doesn't practice his culture, religion or any of the traditions.

Then you have an African American guy. He lost his African name centuries ago. His name is Marcus. He has a small afro going on, dark brown eyes and dark brown skin. He lives in a place filled with white people that are racist to Jews and blacks. But he doesn't practice any African holidays, traditional religions, cultures or anything.

Of the two, who do you think will receive the most feelings of inferiority? John probably looks like most of the people he lives around. Marcus looks nothing like the people he lives around. Who do you think feels more discrimination?

Why does a Jewish boy automatically look like every other white/European? He doesn't. Jews have very distinctive physical characteristics, which are part of the reason they are discriminated against today, and were used to distinguish them form Aryans during the Holocaust. Africans aren't the only race who've been discriminated against because of physical attributes.

ayanasioux:

How about you do this for me, because I'm done with telling people what I'VE witnessed. Now I don't know where you live, the amount of black people that live around you, or how those black people are around you, but I want you to listen very closely for about a week or two (and I'm not talking about what you've done before, I'm talking about now) to the conversations amongst black people. Talk to them yourself. Comment on their hair, your hair to them. If they're wearing colored contacts, ask them why. If you ever see a black person avoiding the sun (something you'll probably see the most) ask them why they're doing that. If they say "because I'll get darker (which they probably will)" ask them why does it matter if they get darker. Ask them about their culture. Even bring up the topic about Africans to them and see what they think. See what they say ABOUT Africa. Ask them if they like their skin color and why they do or don't. Ask them how they feel about dark skinned black people, then light skinned black people. Try to understand how they feel about themselves. But don't make it obvious that you're quizzing them. Take down notes on some of their responses, reactions and feelings, like, literally write it down.

Until then, this conversation/ debate is over. When you do that, then we can talk.

No. Because relying on what you've witnessed isn't enough. That's the thing here--our perception is limited to our perception. We can never fully know the inferiority and pain a Jew feels because of their race without experiencing it. We certainly can't measure either races centuries of suffering based solely on what a handful of their people say. That doesn't cut it. You won't know unless you experience it. So why try to compare the two? You can only say you think the Holocaust did less damage because you haven't experienced the damage it has done personally. And somebody who says the Holocaust did more damage is just as wrong. So no, I won't go and interview blacks in my community and pry into their personal lives solely for the purpose of this debate, because it doesn't change the fact that I will never understand their pain. And you will never understand that of the Jews. Because we've never experienced it. And that's that.

And this conversation/debate can be over for you, but I'm still willing (and I still will) to continue discussing my beliefs with others.

^Okay, want to play that game. So you're comparing 400 years to 80 years? The numbers as still dramatically different.

The point I'm making with the Jew guy and the black guy is that Jew's aren't as easily distinguishable as blacks are. Just because you see one Jewish person that fits the "distinctive" characteristics of a Jew, that doesn't mean you've spotted all Jews because they look that way. You could have missed one that lives in your neighborhood but you wouldn't know because they don't fit those traits. But with blacks, there's no escaping it. Blacks have the most dominate genotypes of all cultures and they're not easy to miss, especially since their skin is a dead give away, unlike a Jew.

I don't think you read my last comment right. I said for YOU to go out and figure out how black people think about themselves and etc. Did you even read through the last comment before you commented?

It hasn't been a week or two yet either.