Slavery and Segregation vs. Holocaust

ayanasioux:

^ I don't think you read my last comment right. I said for YOU to go out and figure out how black people think about themselves and etc. Did you even read through the last comment before you commented?

It hasn't been a week or two yet either.

Yeah, I did. And I said, no. I said, "So no, I won't go and interview blacks in my community and pry into their personal lives solely for the purpose of this debate, because it doesn't change the fact that I will never understand their pain". I'm not going to because it's not going to change the fact that I won't understand what they're going through. And you won't understand what Jew's have gone through, no matter how much you "interview" them. And without fully understanding, you can't compare. That's the flaw in this whole "debate".

engine:

Yeah, I did. And I said, no. I said, "So no, I won't go and interview blacks in my community and pry into their personal lives solely for the purpose of this debate, because it doesn't change the fact that I will never understand their pain". I'm not going to because it's not going to change the fact that I won't understand what they're going through. And you won't understand what Jew's have gone through, no matter how much you "interview" them. And without fully understanding, you can't compare. That's the flaw in this whole "debate".

So you're saying comparing two like issues going through both these groups of people's (because I have a very good idea of how Jews feel also, in cause you didn't notice) minds, but only the difference of years to separate the two, would not make it safe for me to say that I believe slavery and segregation has done more damage because of the length of time it lasted, is not relevant? Do you see what I'm getting at?

ayanasioux:

So you're saying comparing two like issues going through both these groups of people's (because I have a very good idea of how Jews feel also, in cause you didn't notice) minds, but only the difference of years to separate the two, would not make it safe for me to say that I believe slavery and segregation has done more damage because of the length of time it lasted, is not relevant? Do you see what I'm getting at?

How do you know you have a good idea of how Jews feel exactly? And I'm saying that there really isn't a big difference in the longevity of the issues--Jew's have been persecuted for centuries, just like Africans. But for some reason, you seem to ignore that fact.

engine:

How do you know you have a good idea of how Jews feel exactly? And I'm saying that there really isn't a big difference in the longevity of the issues--Jew's have been persecuted for centuries, just like Africans. But for some reason, you seem to ignore that fact.

What makes you think I don't? Just consider that I am an African American living in America. Around the WHOLE WORLD blacks are discriminated against. I don't know about Jews, but I'm sure their discrimination isn't spread across the globe.

Their persecution does not compare. "Longevity" ALWAYS matters and it always will.

I don't think this debate is for you especially since you won't even try to do what I've asked of you. Instead you want to act like I have no idea of what it feels to feel inferior. I was once in those shoes and I'm breaking out of it. Can you tell me that you've been in either our shoes or theirs?

ayanasioux:

What makes you think I don't? Just consider that I am an African American living in America. Around the WHOLE WORLD blacks are discriminated against. I don't know about Jews, but I'm sure their discrimination isn't spread across the globe.

Their persecution does not compare. "Longevity" ALWAYS matters and it always will.

Jews have been persecuted in Egypt, Russia, Spain, France, Germany, the US, the Netherlands, Britain, the Middle East, Turkey, etc. Is that not "spread across the globe" enough for you?

I agree that longevity matters--that's what I said. But I think you're ignoring the fact that Jews have been persecuted since the 3rd century BC. If that's not longevity, I don't know what is.

ayanasioux:

I don't think this debate is for you especially since you won't even try to do what I've asked of you. Instead you want to act like I have no idea of what it feels to feel inferior. I was once in those shoes and I'm breaking out of it. Can you tell me that you've been in either our shoes or theirs?

I have never claimed you don't know what it feels like to be inferior. I did say that you won't know how inferior a Jew feels because of their race, because you aren't Jewish (as you've stated in previous posts), so you can't compare your suffering to theirs. And I have certainly felt inferior because of my background, yes. And debate is for everyone, sorry.

Unfortunately, the globe consists of much more than that, on a first hand matter.
Secondly, discrimination is just the start. But to force change onto one's culture, is a different story.

ayanasioux:

Unfortunately, the globe consists of much more than that, on a first hand matter.
Secondly, discrimination is just the start. But to force change onto one's culture, is a different story.

I kept the list to a min. I could go on and on. Australia has recently seen a spike in antisemitism, as have Brazil, Argentina, and Chile. And that's persecution on every single continent with the exception of Antarctica. I'd say that's pretty global.

I didn't say discrimination, I said persecution. In Egypt, Jews were enslaved, forced to stop practice, and eventually had to flee. That's not just a little discrimination. In the Spanish Inquisition, Jews were initially forced to practice Christianity or face execution. As the conflict heightened, all Jews, even those who had denounced their religion, were tortured, driven out of the country, their books, homes, stores, etc. were destroyed--to the point where centuries of documents were lost. That sounds like being forced to change somebody's culture to me.

engine:

I kept the list to a min. I could go on and on. Australia has recently seen a spike in antisemitism, as have Brazil, Argentina, and Chile. And that's persecution on every single continent with the exception of Antarctica. I'd say that's pretty global.

I didn't say discrimination, I said persecution. In Egypt, Jews were enslaved, forced to stop practice, and eventually had to flee. That's not just a little discrimination. In the Spanish Inquisition, Jews were initially forced to practice Christianity or face execution. As the conflict heightened, all Jews, even those who had denounced their religion, were tortured, driven out of the country, their books, homes, stores, etc. were destroyed--to the point where centuries of documents were lost. That sounds like being forced to change somebody's culture to me.

You know, this debate between the two of us is over until you do what I've asked you. You won't even try it and that's the thing that bugs me the most. I never did like people who aren't willing to try something.

Also, prying is a part of life. We do it even when we don't know it. It's how we learn people, how we figure out the answers to things, how we figure out how people work. There's nothing wrong with it.

ayanasioux:

You know, this debate between the two of us is over until you do what I've asked you. You won't even try it and that's the thing that bugs me the most. I never did like people who aren't willing to try something.

Also, prying is a part of life. We do it even when we don't know it. It's how we learn people, how we figure out the answers to things, how we figure out how people work. There's nothing wrong with it.

And yet you still ignore the fact that Jew's went through everything you say make African's suffering worse, and for just as long. Why is that?

And I am really not committed enough to this debate to involve my personal life in it, so I don't feel the need to comply with your wishes. It's not going to change the fact that two different people's suffering will never be comparable, much less two different culture's.

engine:

And yet you still ignore the fact that Jew's went through everything you say make African's suffering worse, and for just as long. Why is that?

And I am really not committed enough to this debate to involve my personal life in it, so I don't feel the need to comply with your wishes. It's not going to change the fact that two different people's suffering will never be comparable, much less two different culture's.

Because I know deep down inside that it wasn't as long or as affective. The biggest reason being that some Jews could get away with being any other European because of their looks not always being "distinctively different" where as African Americans cannot do this because their looks are too different from Europeans. That means they are more targeted. And are you aware that African Americans are more discriminated against then Jews are? I don't understand why a lot of people are missing that alone. You can't tell a Jew just by looking at them, but you can tell a black person by looking at them. May I remind you that Judaism is a religion and not a race? I know a lot of people will say "But a lot of Jews were concentrated in this one place so it makes it a race" well it's not a race. A lot of people that practice Islam live in Northern and eastern Africa, does that make Muslim a race? The definition of Judaism isn't "people pertaining to a specific area that practice the same religions", no, it's a religion itself, and that's all it is.

What I am talking about is mental and conscious damage and if you're unwilling to try what I've suggested, even if it's with Jewish people also, then I have nothing else to explain to you. That would tell you best.

ayanasioux:

Because I know deep down inside that it wasn't as long or as affective. The biggest reason being that some Jews could get away with being any other European because of their looks not always being "distinctively different" where as African Americans cannot do this because their looks are too different from Europeans. That means they are more targeted. And are you aware that African Americans are more discriminated against then Jews are? I don't understand why a lot of people are missing that alone. You can't tell a Jew just by looking at them, but you can tell a black person by looking at them. May I remind you that Judaism is a religion and not a race? I know a lot of people will say "But a lot of Jews were concentrated in this one place so it makes it a race" well it's not a race. A lot of people that practice Islam live in Northern and eastern Africa, does that make Muslim a race? The definition of Judaism isn't "people pertaining to a specific area that practice the same religions", no, it's a religion itself, and that's all it is.

So you're saying you're right, despite factual evidence that it was just as long, and as widespread, and consisted of a lot of the same things? And how do you know that Africans are discriminated against "more" than Jews? What proof do you have of that, world-wide, and throughout history? Maybe where you live now, but who's to say in another city, another state, another country, it's not entirely different? And by "more" do you mean more often? Worse? How would you measure that? And I am well aware the Judaism is not a race, but Jews are an ethnoreligious group, meaning that many of them carry the same genes--making them easy to identify based on physical attributes. And not any Jew could "get away" with coming off as European--and regardless, they shouldn't have to. And what you're getting at is the way people perceive themselves because of their culture/heritage/race. So why does being able to pass as white count if you still have a huge inferiority complex because of who you know you are and what your people have experienced in the past? It doesn't.

ayanasioux:

What I am talking about is mental and conscious damage and if you're unwilling to try what I've suggested, even if it's with Jewish people also, then I have nothing else to explain to you. That would tell you best.

And talking to Africans or Jews about their "mental and conscious damage" won't make me actually understand what they're feeling, much less be able to generalize the emotions of an entire group of people enough to compare the two.

^ Ha, why'd you ask me the first question, huh? It's almost an insult to me. Actually, I don't even think it's a question that should be asked. I'm sure you're also aware that African Americans receive more discrimination than Jews.

Yeah, you won't understand, I know that, but you will get the understanding of the damage done and that's what I'm aiming for. I'm not aiming for you to understand their pain, but to understand the damage caused between the two and which one is more affecting now.

ayanasioux:

^ Ha, why'd you ask me the first question, huh? It's almost an insult to me. Actually, I don't even think it's a question that should be asked. I'm sure you're also aware that African Americans receive more discrimination than Jews...I'm not aiming for you to understand their pain, but to understand the damage caused between the two and which one is more affecting now.

I'm just not too sure why you're continually refusing to look at factual evidence? And as for Africans being more discriminated against, I'd like proof. I don't think that's something that's easy to measure by any means, so I think unless somebody has evidence of that, one should refrain from making statements like that.

And I doubt I'd be able to understand the damage done/how its affecting each group now without understand how much pain their feeling/how much they've suffered--which I'm sure varies from person to person, making it even harder to generalize--and adequately be able to compare them. Because I don't believe they are comparable. I don't believe any two people's sufferings are, because we can only ever fully grasp our own pain.

^ Christ, it took me a while to find this in one of my old posts. But here's a start, that's just testing the waters too.

EDIT. And just to let you know, whites include Jews also, because they are not considered people of color.

ayanasioux:

^ Christ, it took me a while to find this in one of my old posts. But here's a start, that's just testing the waters too.

EDIT. And just to let you know, whites include Jews also, because they are not considered people of color.

That document proves a helluvua lot about how racist America is against African Americans and Native Americans, but it does nothing to compare it do those of Jewish decent.

And just a clarity question, are we limiting "current effect" to statistics in America? Because to me, that doesn't make sense--seeing as the Holocaust didn't happen in America/it's global effect is probably a lot more obvious in Europe.

engine:

That document proves a helluvua lot about how racist America is against African Americans and Native Americans, but it does nothing to compare it do those of Jewish decent.

And just a clarity question, are we limiting "current effect" to statistics in America? Because to me, that doesn't make sense--seeing as the Holocaust didn't happen in America/it's global effect is probably a lot more obvious in Europe.

And like a posted, white is considered a race, therefore the Jewish population fits in it. After all, they are still white. Jewish is their religion, what country they're from is their nationality and white is their race.

Europe is one of the most smallest countries in the world and Europeans make up one of the smallest populations in the world. Not only is racism against blacks in Europe also, it's everywhere else. How many race crimes do you hear in the world towards Jews as you do about Blacks? This is why I think you saying "how would you know they feel more discrimination in the world?" is an insult to me because we feel more discrimination, oppression and inferiority than Jews everywhere.

Wow, here's something interesting I found regarding the problems black people have with hair today.

It's funny the things I find when I'm BSing around, but I can never seem to find it when I want to. It's just one of those things.

Matt Smith:

I don't think you can accurately compare the two and decide which was 'worse' without it turning into some sort of oppression olympics. They were both huge acts of hatred against humanity that produced a vast amount of suffering. Both caused pain and conflict and destruction and there can be no justification but I don't believe either was worse because you can't compare them in that sense.

This. The fact that this thread even exists is utterly ridiculous to me because both people of African descent and people of Jewish decent (and yes, in some senses, "Jewish" can be considered a race. There are certain characteristics and diseases that are more prevalent amongst the Ashkenazi Jewish population.) have suffered great devastations and discrimination throughout history. Hate is hate, point blank, and the fact that this thread is serving as an attempt to pit the two communities against one another and to suggest that one act of hatred has had more of an impact than another is purely disgusting to me.

And though I have a Jewish background and obvious Jewish traits, I don't think the Holocaust was any more devastating than slavery and/or segregation in the US or vice versa. It's just ridiculous to try and compare the two just because they affected two different races, and I don't like the obvious bias that's coming into play in this thread. Yes, my people have suffered, but just because they are my people doesn't make their suffering any greater than anyone else's.

Also, I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up, but Jewish people were also enslaved in ancient times to the Egyptians, so slavery isn't purely an African American-enslaved-to-Europeans thing, and I find it to be very ignorant that that's how it's being portrayed in this thread.

Regardless, I find the existence of this thread to be offensive to both races, and it's ridiculous to try to compare two instances of hate to prove "who had it worse" Anyone who claims that one of those acts is somehow any worse than the other (on either side) is out of their mind.

i saw sparks:

This. The fact that this thread even exists is utterly ridiculous to me because both people of African descent and people of Jewish decent (and yes, in some senses, "Jewish" can be considered a race. There are certain characteristics and diseases that are more prevalent amongst the Ashkenazi Jewish population.) have suffered great devastations and discrimination throughout history. Hate is hate, point blank, and the fact that this thread is serving as an attempt to pit the two communities against one another and to suggest that one act of hatred has had more of an impact than another is purely disgusting to me.

And though I have a Jewish background and obvious Jewish traits, I don't think the Holocaust was any more devastating than slavery and/or segregation in the US or vice versa. It's just ridiculous to try and compare the two just because they affected two different races, and I don't like the obvious bias that's coming into play in this thread. Yes, my people have suffered, but just because they are my people doesn't make their suffering any greater than anyone else's.

Also, I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up, but Jewish people were also enslaved in ancient times to the Egyptians, so slavery isn't purely an African American-enslaved-to-Europeans thing, and I find it to be very ignorant that that's how it's being portrayed in this thread.

Regardless, I find the existence of this thread to be offensive to both races, and it's ridiculous to try to compare two instances of hate to prove "who had it worse" Anyone who claims that one of those acts is somehow any worse than the other (on either side) is out of their mind.

I case you haven't read, I clearly corrected myself later on (a damn year later) that I really wanted to say "which did the most damage". I believe that could be argumentative. Besides, worse is too vague of a word.

ayanasioux:

I case you haven't read, I clearly corrected myself later on (a damn year later) that I really wanted to say "which did the most damage". I believe that could be argumentative. Besides, worse is too vague of a word.

But is that not basically the same implication, just sugar-coated? There's no way you can honestly say that one form of hatred somehow "did more damage" than the other because that hatred, persecution, and discrimination of both races were equally devastating, and each had great cultural significance

And you ignored the fact that Hebrew people have also been enslaved (by Africans, might I add), so the suffering of African slaves can't really be made out to be any worse because the Jews have experienced the exact same thing except they were persecuted because of their religion, not the color of their skin, which is equally disgusting. Slavery is not solely a caucasian European on a plantation in the pre-Civil War southern US owning African American slaves; many cultures have been victims to slavery, and to imply that somehow the more well-known slavery that I mentioned before is somehow worse/more damaging/greater suffering than all the other cultures and races that have been enslaved across the world is just ridiculous, I'm sorry.

I think it's just as equally hateful and disgusting to try to make it out as if one people's suffering was somehow more significant/worst/had a greater impact than the other, when it's practically the same thing. I don't know, I just find it completely incomprehensible as to why anyone would want to say one race has experienced more hatred than the other as if that somehow makes them more entitled. Actually, I find the entire topic of this thread to just be fueling and justifying hate with more hate. To brush off the Holocaust or slavery as if it's nothing is something I just can't wrap my mind around.

The idea that this is some sort of "olympics of suffering" and that either Jews or African Americans have gone home with the gold is just utter bullshit, and I can't even imagine how anyone could honestly and efficiently debate that one somehow suffered more than the other. Hell, what about the Native Americans? If we're comparing hatred, racism, and discrimination here, why haven't the Native Americans come into play? I mean, they were practically forced off their own land by the US government, and I do believe the Trail of Tears was just as much an act of hate as slavery and segregation were?

I mean, I just think it's dumb to say that a certain people can only say they've suffered hatred and that everyone else has no right to complain because "oh, your ancestors weren't slaves" (oh wait, mine were, they're just not black, so somehow that means they had it easier). That's idiotic. Everyone, no matter their race, religion, sexual orientation, gender, what have you, has experienced discrimination at one point in time, and to imply that one discrimination is somehow worse/more impactful than another is blatant discrimination in itself.

Also, I disagree with the notion you keep trying to bring up that somehow the Holocaust is discussed more in schools than African American enslavement and segregation. Growing up in the beautiful state of South Carolina, I learned just as much, if not more, about the Underground Railroad, the Antebellum period, the Civil War, Jim Crow laws, and other aspects of segregation, because they're all deeply embedded in the state's history, than I did about the Holocaust and World War II, so I find that implication that one is somehow drawn upon more to be unfounded. And on international terms, of course the Holocaust and World War II are going to be taught more because it had more of a global reach and an effect on more countries than just the enslavement and segregation of African Americans in the good ole US of A.