Slavery and Segregation vs. Holocaust

Matt Smith:

You're totally decontextualising here. Black people don't only exist in America, you seem to be making this implication repeatedly. There are black communites who have an important place in many different countries and cultures throughout the world. The fact that you're not connected to your cultural heritage doesn't mean nobody else is - I have a friend who is Kikuyu and she speaks the Kikuyu language even though she's lived in Britain her whole life so there clearly is a sense of culture, heritage and tradition there. It's like you're erasing the existence of all Africans who aren't Americans, and there are close to a billion Africans who live on the African continent (plus a large diaspora, yes, the result of slavery, but there's also emigration and colonialism to take into account too). So I don't see how you can only talk about the experiences of the African diaspora within America. Not everybody has the same experience with regards to culture, language, heritage etc.

So what I'm really trying to get at is that you can't just say that 'the dehumanisation of the Jewish people wasn't as severe' because, what even, it's not a competition. Why does it matter to you who suffered most? It doesn't change the weight of the atrocity and you're just belittling the experiences of whichever group you think had it worse. I'd find it inappropriate if you were trying to compare, for example, the Rwandan Genocide to the Armenian Genocide and asking whether Rwandans or Armenians had it worse.

Well I'm pretty sure I was talking about slavery and segregation in America... not other countries. And just speaking the language doesn't mean a whole bunch.

And when I said worse, I was referring to other people said, not what I said.

Kind of sounds like you're trying to be a debate destroyer.
You want to know the honest truth behind this forum?

pierrot the clown. Thank you.

ayanasioux:

Well I'm pretty sure I was talking about slavery and segregation in America... not other countries. And just speaking the language doesn't mean a whole bunch.

And when I said worse, I was referring to other people said, not what I said.

Kind of sounds like you're trying to be a debate destroyer.
You want to know the honest truth behind this forum?

pierrot the clown. Thank you.

I think you flatter me too much to assume I've got the power to destroy your whole debate. Of course I'm trying to destroy your argument, because I disagree with the notion of comparing the Holocaust and slavery in terms of what is 'worse', so if you'd like to continue, then carry on.

Matt Smith:

ayanasioux:

Well I'm pretty sure I was talking about slavery and segregation in America... not other countries. And just speaking the language doesn't mean a whole bunch.

And when I said worse, I was referring to other people said, not what I said.

Kind of sounds like you're trying to be a debate destroyer.
You want to know the honest truth behind this forum?

pierrot the clown. Thank you.

I think you flatter me too much to assume I've got the power to destroy your whole debate. Of course I'm trying to destroy your argument, because I disagree with the notion of comparing the Holocaust and slavery in terms of what is 'worse', so if you'd like to continue, then carry on.

But if the general public (and I'm not talking about people on this site. I don't know you all for anything) brings to my attention that they "believe" the Holocaust was worse, then I'll write a forum about it. Is that an issue with you?

Personally I think I'd rather not post my reason on here but message you.

Since when were horrible historical events a competion?

Cereal Killer:

Since when were horrible historical events a competion?

Since modern day people that I know of tried to compare the two. I honestly just wanted to know why people believed these things when they said it.

ayanasioux:

But if the general public (and I'm not talking about people on this site. I don't know you all for anything) brings to my attention that they "believe" the Holocaust was worse, then I'll write a forum about it. Is that an issue with you?

Personally I think I'd rather not post my reason on here but message you.

Yeah, but that's my point, I think people who say the Holocaust was worse than slavery are diminishing the suffering of African Americans (and people of all ethnicities who have suffered from slavery, because I know slavery has never been exclusive to those of African origin). And I think that people who say that slavery was worse than the Holocaust are diminishing the suffering of Jewish people (and others that died in the Holocaust). So either way, I'm not happy about people saying the suffering of one group was worse than another because either way you're demeaning the suffering of one group.

And of course I don't have an issue with you making this topic. I'm differentiating between your right to create a discussion and the arguments you're putting across. Your topic is fine, there's a good basis for discussion. I just disagree with the view that you're posing that slavery was worse than the Holocaust (because I think neither was 'worse' than the other) - and of course you're still entitled to your view, although I'm still entitled to challenge it, which is the basis of all discussion. But you can message me with your arguments if you feel it's too personal and you don't want to post here, although other people are still free to leave their thoughts on the topic.

Well if you think about it, although it was on a smaller scale, the slavery and segregation of gypsies/Romani people is worse than that of people of colour in the sense that it still continues today - take for example the "gypsy deportations" that took place in France just a little while ago. Yes, gypsies (some of them, at least) still speak their own language and follow their own customs, but that neither makes them more human in the eyes of other ethnicities neither does it guarantee them jobs or a good education for their kids.

And, really, languages and traditional customs are becoming extinct all over the world, it's not a phenomenon that was strictly speaking generated by slavery and segregation. Let's say that I decided to become a British citizen, I'd live and work in the UK, I'd probably marry another British citizen and have kids. I'd probably teach them some basic notions of Romanian so they'd be able to talk with their Romanian cousins/grandmother/aunts, but I doubt that they'd teach their children that much about Romanian culture, in any case by the fourth generation or so, little would be left of my Romanian cultural heritage. It's just how it works, once you move to another culture, you're gradually absorbed into it especially if you don't have anyone to link you back to your original culture.

kafka.:

Well if you think about it, although it was on a smaller scale, the slavery and segregation of gypsies/Romani people is worse than that of people of colour in the sense that it still continues today - take for example the "gypsy deportations" that took place in France just a little while ago. Yes, gypsies (some of them, at least) still speak their own language and follow their own customs, but that neither makes them more human in the eyes of other ethnicities neither does it guarantee them jobs or a good education for their kids.

And, really, languages and traditional customs are becoming extinct all over the world, it's not a phenomenon that was strictly speaking generated by slavery and segregation. Let's say that I decided to become a British citizen, I'd live and work in the UK, I'd probably marry another British citizen and have kids. I'd probably teach them some basic notions of Romanian so they'd be able to talk with their Romanian cousins/grandmother/aunts, but I doubt that they'd teach their children that much about Romanian culture, in any case by the fourth generation or so, little would be left of my Romanian cultural heritage. It's just how it works, once you move to another culture, you're gradually absorbed into it especially if you don't have anyone to link you back to your original culture.

But did you know similar things were happening in Africa also? It's just a continuous racial thing. Especially when it comes to Native Americans because they are almost completely forgotten in the eyes of many people. They received no rights in history until I guess no one seemed to care anymore whether they had rights or not. So, I don't think Romanians had it "the worst".

I think that when it comes to blacks, though, in most cultures they are inferior to the eyes of a different race. To me that's a widespread thing and not concentrated in just America. Honestly, if a Romanian came to America or probably anywhere else in the world other than areas around Romania, they'd be looked at as just white. A lot of cultures (not including African) white shows superiority while the darker you get, the more inferior you're looked at to be.

This could be for many reasons other than slavery and segregation but still the inferiority of blacks in other cultures minds still remain.

ayanasioux:

But did you know similar things were happening in Africa also? It's just a continuous racial thing. Especially when it comes to Native Americans because they are almost completely forgotten in the eyes of many people. They received no rights in history until I guess no one seemed to care anymore whether they had rights or not. So, I don't think Romanians had it "the worst".

I think that when it comes to blacks, though, in most cultures they are inferior to the eyes of a different race. To me that's a widespread thing and not concentrated in just America. Honestly, if a Romanian came to America or probably anywhere else in the world other than areas around Romania, they'd be looked at as just white. A lot of cultures (not including African) white shows superiority while the darker you get, the more inferior you're looked at to be.

This could be for many reasons other than slavery and segregation but still the inferiority of blacks in other cultures minds still remain.

Maybe now they would be looked at as "just as white", but America has always been popular for its racism. Whether you're Black, Irish, Italian, Japanese, Chinese, Middle Eastern, Muslim, Eastern European, and even when the country was just starting, an English Loyalist, you were hated. Racism is not something new to America, but racism against blacks is the most widely known and probably the biggest racism that has happened in America.

To the topic of this thread, I don't think they can be compared. They were both terrible acts against humanity. And as far as terrible acts against humanity go, they aren't the only ones that have happened. I'm also postive that if anyone does have an answer to that question, it's going to vary from person to person. I don't think there is a right answer to this question though, because I don't think they can be compared.

fightoffyourdemons.:

To the topic of this thread, I don't think they can be compared. They were both terrible acts against humanity. And as far as terrible acts against humanity go, they aren't the only ones that have happened. I'm also postive that if anyone does have an answer to that question, it's going to vary from person to person. I don't think there is a right answer to this question though, because I don't think they can be compared.

Well, I was asking for peoples opinions, not a right or wrong answer.

ayanasioux:

But did you know similar things were happening in Africa also? It's just a continuous racial thing. Especially when it comes to Native Americans because they are almost completely forgotten in the eyes of many people. They received no rights in history until I guess no one seemed to care anymore whether they had rights or not. So, I don't think Romanians had it "the worst".

I think that when it comes to blacks, though, in most cultures they are inferior to the eyes of a different race. To me that's a widespread thing and not concentrated in just America. Honestly, if a Romanian came to America or probably anywhere else in the world other than areas around Romania, they'd be looked at as just white. A lot of cultures (not including African) white shows superiority while the darker you get, the more inferior you're looked at to be.

This could be for many reasons other than slavery and segregation but still the inferiority of blacks in other cultures minds still remain.

You know that a Romanian and a Romani isn't the same thing...right?
The Roma were at one point forbidden to emigrate to the US, to my knowledge no Romanians have ever been banned from entering the US except by their own Government.

ayanasioux:

But did you know similar things were happening in Africa also? It's just a continuous racial thing. Especially when it comes to Native Americans because they are almost completely forgotten in the eyes of many people. They received no rights in history until I guess no one seemed to care anymore whether they had rights or not. So, I don't think Romanians had it "the worst".

I think that when it comes to blacks, though, in most cultures they are inferior to the eyes of a different race. To me that's a widespread thing and not concentrated in just America. Honestly, if a Romanian came to America or probably anywhere else in the world other than areas around Romania, they'd be looked at as just white. A lot of cultures (not including African) white shows superiority while the darker you get, the more inferior you're looked at to be.

This could be for many reasons other than slavery and segregation but still the inferiority of blacks in other cultures minds still remain.

Are you serious?

Romani people are the ethnicity colloquially refereed to as "gypsies". They started emigrating from India in the 10th century AD and settled around the Balkan Peninsula, the space that is now Romania and Turkey, though some got as far as Spain. It's quite obvious given their descent that they're not white. Most of them are also not Romanian since in Romania there are big historical ethnic communities (the biggest ones being the Hungarian and the German one) whose members, although their family has lived in the space that is now called Romania for centuries and have Romanian citizenship, don't identify/refer to themselves as Romanian. Mind you, Romanians have had to put up with discrimination quite a lot themselves - my ancestors lived through six centuries of Hungarian and Austrian rule which deemed them a "tolerated nation" meaning basically that they had no legal rights whatsoever and great efforts were made to erase Romanian culture (especially Romanian language). Even today, we're not that thought of that nicely in Western Europe, where most people think we're out to steal their jobs. But anyway.

You could find Romani slaves in Europe (especially Moldavia and Wallachia) as late as the mid 19th century and in a lot of places they were subject to racial cleansings. Of course, during WWII they suffered from the Holocaust exactly like Jews and then during the Cold War, most communist regimes were hostile towards them. Even today, the standard of living of most Romani people is bellow the European average (in the case of people living in urban camps, much much bellow) and they face discrimination both from institutions - the Romani language is not recognized by the EU as an European language, education (even at a primary and secondary level) in it is nearly impossible to find and there are very few publications in Romani, then many European governments are trying all sorts of things to get Romani people out of their country - for example the French government is actually paying them to leave France, but also obviously from the rest of the society (there have been numerous cases of Romani people being attacked for no reason, it's hard it is for them to get a job because employers are prejudiced, etc etc).

kafka.:

Are you serious?

Romani people are the ethnicity colloquially refereed to as "gypsies". They started emigrating from India in the 10th century AD and settled around the Balkan Peninsula, the space that is now Romania and Turkey, though some got as far as Spain. It's quite obvious given their descent that they're not white. Most of them are also not Romanian since in Romania there are big historical ethnic communities (the biggest ones being the Hungarian and the German one) whose members, although their family has lived in the space that is now called Romania for centuries and have Romanian citizenship, don't identify/refer to themselves as Romanian. Mind you, Romanians have had to put up with discrimination quite a lot themselves - my ancestors lived through six centuries of Hungarian and Austrian rule which deemed them a "tolerated nation" meaning basically that they had no legal rights whatsoever and great efforts were made to erase Romanian culture (especially Romanian language). Even today, we're not that thought of that nicely in Western Europe, where most people think we're out to steal their jobs. But anyway.

You could find Romani slaves in Europe (especially Moldavia and Wallachia) as late as the mid 19th century and in a lot of places they were subject to racial cleansings. Of course, during WWII they suffered from the Holocaust exactly like Jews and then during the Cold War, most communist regimes were hostile towards them. Even today, the standard of living of most Romani people is bellow the European average (in the case of people living in urban camps, much much bellow) and they face discrimination both from institutions - the Romani language is not recognized by the EU as an European language, education (even at a primary and secondary level) in it is nearly impossible to find and there are very few publications in Romani, then many European governments are trying all sorts of things to get Romani people out of their country - for example the French government is actually paying them to leave France, but also obviously from the rest of the society (there have been numerous cases of Romani people being attacked for no reason, it's hard it is for them to get a job because employers are prejudiced, etc etc).

Well I guess they no a little something about the things black people have went through (and are still going through) but in it's different ways.

ayanasioux:

Well, I was asking for peoples opinions, not a right or wrong answer.

Well, people generally believe thier opinions to be right, or else they wouldn't want to defend them. So if someone says the Holocaust was worse, or someone says segregation and slavery were worse, they're going to believe thier opinion is right.

fightoffyourdemons.:

Well, people generally believe thier opinions to be right, or else they wouldn't want to defend them. So if someone says the Holocaust was worse, or someone says segregation and slavery were worse, they're going to believe thier opinion is right.

And yet even as an opinion, it's still not a right or wrong answer.

ayanasioux:

And yet even as an opinion, it's still not a right or wrong answer.

Well isn't that kind of obvious in a debate Nobody has said that their opinion is the right one or the wrong, one but as stated, you believe what you think is right.
I think this whole thing is getting a bit side tracked anyway and we're kind of stating the obvious.

Anyway, I think the whole thing is hard to compare in such a way. They were both such disgusting atrocious events in history, and as Matt Smith said, it's impossible to say one is worse than the other without belittling the suffering of millions of people.

sunflowers.:

Well isn't that kind of obvious in a debate Nobody has said that their opinion is the right one or the wrong, one but as stated, you believe what you think is right.
I think this whole thing is getting a bit side tracked anyway and we're kind of stating the obvious.

Anyway, I think the whole thing is hard to compare in such a way. They were both such disgusting atrocious events in history, and as Matt Smith said, it's impossible to say one is worse than the other without belittling the suffering of millions of people.

Then that gets to my point about what a lot of people I know say about both of them in comparison.

ayanasioux:

And yet even as an opinion, it's still not a right or wrong answer.

Exactly, but they believe it's right or wrong.

Also, can I ask which one you believe to be worse? And would you mind giving it a reason? I'm just curious since you asked if you had one. If you don't want to say, that's fine.

fightoffyourdemons.:

Exactly, but they believe it's right or wrong.

Also, can I ask which one you believe to be worse? And would you mind giving it a reason? I'm just curious since you asked if you had one. If you don't want to say, that's fine.

Well, however you want to take it but...

I don't say either is worse. I just think one did more damage to "Americans" as I should say. And I think that makes it kind of obvious which one I'm talking about.

ayanasioux:

Well, however you want to take it but...

I don't say either is worse. I just think one did more damage to "Americans" as I should say. And I think that makes it kind of obvious which one I'm talking about.

I know what one your talking about. But I'd also like to point out that even if we didn't know about the conditions of the Holocaust until after concentration camps were discovereded, it was still part of WW2, which affected the world (including the US). Just like slavery and segregation was part of the Civil War.