Slavery and Segregation vs. Holocaust

fightoffyourdemons.:

I know what one your talking about. But I'd also like to point out that even if we didn't know about the conditions of the Holocaust until after concentration camps were discovereded, it was still part of WW2, which affected the world (including the US). Just like slavery and segregation was part of the Civil War.

Damaging affects to the human minds in general. I don't know many Jews that think so wrongly of themselves...

How are we judging what is considered "worse" here?

Anyway, I don't like this "who has it worse" game. Both were damaging, both were born out of prejudice, and both created a loss of identity (to some extent) for the people affected.

ayanasioux:

Damaging affects to the human minds in general. I don't know many Jews that think so wrongly of themselves...

You keep saying you don't think either is worse than the other, yet you also keep bringing up what African Americans have to face now that Jewish people (apparently) don't. I think it's obvious which you think was 'worse'.

As pretty much everybody else on this thread has been saying, they were both horrific events and comparing them does no favours nor does it help anybody. I don't understand why this is even a debate. Comparing two of the worst atrocities in human history is redundant.

siriusly.:

How are we judging what is considered "worse" here?

Anyway, I don't like this "who has it worse" game. Both were damaging, both were born out of prejudice, and both created a loss of identity (to some extent) for the people affected.

I know this is a little off topic but do you think you could edit my story on here? I need one because it's complete and the site is saying that it's waiting for an editor.

To be honest with you, this was just kind of an experiment. It doesn't really matter to me what people think anymore. And like I said, I don't think either one is worse. =P
Now ya'll can stop.

ayanasioux:

To be honest with you, this was just kind of an experiment. It doesn't really matter to me what people think anymore. And like I said, I don't think either one is worse. =P
Now ya'll can stop.

Well, you can stop, if you want to. But the debate doesn't end just because you don't want to take part anymore.

Matt Smith:

Well, you can stop, if you want to. But the debate doesn't end just because you don't want to take part anymore.

Well, I know that much.

Which is worse? well... both of these atrocities have histories, one is more gruesome and instantaneous while the other is a system that has been in place for longer than today's societies have.

If the Armenian Genocide, which often goes unnoticed today, never happened then Hitler wouldn't have had the guts, or probably not even the idea to pull off his "Final Solution".

Slavery is a much more complex, however. Unlike the holocaust(s), is an institution that has happened for millenia. Before Europeans were enslaving people from Africa, Africans were enslaving other Africans from enemy tribes and selling them. This was common practice, and was how the slave trade began in the first place. Africans readily traded their slaves for European goods, but as the trading escalated their was a power shift and then the Europeans gained a foothold in Africa. It continued on from there like everyone else remembers.

During the middle ages, also, Europeans also enslaved each other to the same extent. This was known as serfdom.

If you're only talking about the African-European slave trade that happened up until the Civil War in comparison to Hitler's holucaust. I'd have to say that the Holocaust was worse. If you're talking about slavery in general, however, I'd say slavery. Because that's thousands of years and pain and suffering.

ayanasioux:

Damaging affects to the human minds in general. I don't know many Jews that think so wrongly of themselves...

I'm honestly extremely confused by this comment. What's damaging the human mind? And what would make Jews think so wrongly of themselves? All I commented on was that both were tied to wars which affected the US.

LEAF.:

Which is worse? well... both of these atrocities have histories, one is more gruesome and instantaneous while the other is a system that has been in place for longer than today's societies have.

If the Armenian Genocide, which often goes unnoticed today, never happened then Hitler wouldn't have had the guts, or probably not even the idea to pull off his "Final Solution".

Slavery is a much more complex, however. Unlike the holocaust(s), is an institution that has happened for millenia. Before Europeans were enslaving people from Africa, Africans were enslaving other Africans from enemy tribes and selling them. This was common practice, and was how the slave trade began in the first place. Africans readily traded their slaves for European goods, but as the trading escalated their was a power shift and then the Europeans gained a foothold in Africa. It continued on from there like everyone else remembers.

During the middle ages, also, Europeans also enslaved each other to the same extent. This was known as serfdom.

If you're only talking about the African-European slave trade that happened up until the Civil War in comparison to Hitler's holucaust. I'd have to say that the Holocaust was worse. If you're talking about slavery in general, however, I'd say slavery. Because that's thousands of years and pain and suffering.

The enslavement that took place in Africa with the Africans was nothing like how it was in America. They also didn't force other names unto the enslaved, neither did they change their religions, cultures and dehumanize them. I don't think that's a good alibi and I don't like it when people try to cover it up by saying that.
It's also did a lot of damage to the minds of many African Americans (slavery in America) and is nothing compared to the enslavement of African's in Africa. Neither were as many people used in the process.

fightoffyourdemons.:

I'm honestly extremely confused by this comment. What's damaging the human mind? And what would make Jews think so wrongly of themselves? All I commented on was that both were tied to wars which affected the US.

Have you ever gotten to know a black person and I mean really got to know them?

ayanasioux:

The enslavement that took place in Africa with the Africans was nothing like how it was in America. They also didn't force other names unto the enslaved, neither did they change their religions, cultures and dehumanize them. I don't think that's a good alibi and I don't like it when people try to cover it up by saying that.
It's also did a lot of damage to the minds of many African Americans (slavery in America) and is nothing compared to the enslavement of African's in Africa. Neither were as many people used in the process.

Actually I could argue that they did change their religions and cultures, and possibly their names as well... considering the diversity between tribes. They don't share the same language or religion, although there are similarities, and culture can vary as well. Dehumanization was not pressed like it was when the Europeans arrived, however.

Not sure what you're going on about with an alibi or a coverup... I was stating historical facts in order to provide a transition into what became the slave trade you're referring to. If the Africans didn't offer slaves for other goods to begin with, that slave trade may have never happened, or at least not on the same level.

As for the damage of the minds of people, the slave trade is synonymous with what the Spanish did in central and southern north america with their mission system.

LEAF.:

Actually I could argue that they did change their religions and cultures, and possibly their names as well... considering the diversity between tribes. They don't share the same language or religion, although there are similarities, and culture can vary as well. Dehumanization was not pressed like it was when the Europeans arrived, however.

Not sure what you're going on about with an alibi or a coverup... I was stating historical facts in order to provide a transition into what became the slave trade you're referring to. If the Africans didn't offer slaves for other goods to begin with, that slave trade may have never happened, or at least not on the same level.

As for the damage of the minds of people, the slave trade is synonymous with what the Spanish did in central and southern north america with their mission system.

Where are you getting this information from about the Africans changing their names and culture and whatnot because I've never heard of it?

And how did they even get the idea if their first destination was Africa and why did they take so many in comparison? Why did they even voyage to Africa in the first place? I don't think that's all to if. If you remember that colonies in the Northern part of the US believed that slavery was illegal so why would the southern ones get slaves from Africa in the first place? I'm sure at one point they believed in slavery as being illegal.

ayanasioux:

Have you ever gotten to know a black person and I mean really got to know them?

What's your point?

ayanasioux:

Have you ever gotten to know a black person and I mean really got to know them?

Yes, I have. I've gotten to know several actually.

People are people anyways, so I don't get what this has to do with anything...

ayanasioux:

Where are you getting this information from about the Africans changing their names and culture and whatnot because I've never heard of it?

And how did they even get the idea if their first destination was Africa and why did they take so many in comparison? Why did they even voyage to Africa in the first place? I don't think that's all to if. If you remember that colonies in the Northern part of the US believed that slavery was illegal so why would the southern ones get slaves from Africa in the first place? I'm sure at one point they believed in slavery as being illegal.

Well this is the History board, right?
A perfect example of Africans mistreating other African slaves would be what was once known as the kingdom of Dahomey. It's located in what is now the Republic of Benin. It was an extremely violent African kingdom that reached it's height in power around when the Portuguese arrived in Africa. They traded slaves for European firearms and other goods, to expand their territory and in doing so taking even more slaves for themselves. These slaves consisted of many different ethnic groups within Africa. They had different cultures, languages, and religion. They were all culturally integrated into Dahomey in a similar way that they were in America, only here instead of being put to work on cotton or tobacco fields for the rest of their lives, one of two things happened to the slaves that were taken by Dahomey. They were either traded to the Portugese in exchange for other goods, or they were sacrificed en masse by the king to show his power. They were beheaded in the thousands, with the exception of the king's wives, who were mostly buried alive.

As for the rest of your questions, the original reason Europe journeyed to Africa was actually to bypass the Mediterranean Sea and the Middle East. Because back then, goods from Asia were extremely valued in Europe but their flow into European trading posts was filled with taxes and controlled entirely by the Muslim Empire. It was Henry the Navigator, a prince of the kingdom of Portugal, who decided to travel and map out all of the coastline of Africa in order to find an alternate route to Asia. Once Europe found it's own way to Asia there was a power shift. Islam was no longer the powerful Empire it once was, and Europe grew exponentially as it continued to to conquer the world through colonies everywhere it could reach.

Now, slavery in the United States... first of all, something that you should know is that no one in the US believed slavery was illegal until after it was abolished at the end of the Civil War, and even then people still wanted slavery to persist.

The British colonies in the US, actually, began as plantations owned by rich aristocrats from overseas and the fields were mostly worked by indentured servants from Britain, as well as some African slaves, but they were few in number and were treated much, much better than slaves that would come in the following several decades. The north's environment didn't allow for the growing of crops like the south did, so the north specialized in industrialization. They had no need for slaves, but as people saw how profitable the plantation model was, more people did it. More land was taken by Native Americans to fuel more and more tobacco and cotton plantations. It got to the level in the south where there wasn't enough indentured servants to go around, and African slaves became more and more common. This continued up until the eve of the Civil War. Near the end of the war slavery was abolished, yes, but it was not because they thought slavery was illegal. The real reason slavery was abolished in the US was to completely cripple the south's economy, allowing the North to easily win the war and keep the country unified.

fightoffyourdemons.:

Yes, I have. I've gotten to know several actually.

People are people anyways, so I don't get what this has to do with anything...

Gesh, can I get to my point? o_O
My point is that if you hear some of the things some of (a lot of, at least the ones that live around me) say about their race, it's kind of disappointing. To them their natural hair is nigger hair and bad hair. Straight hair is good to them. Dark skin is bad and made fun of especially when it comes to girls. The lighter the skin the better. It's like, light skin is the best thing ever. Light eyes are better too, so wearing colored contacts to lighten their dark eyes is what some of them do. Now you might not understand how it feels but it makes me feel horrible. It's almost like it's bad to be who we are, black.

Now you can make that out as however the hell you want to make it out but I'm telling you that slavery has a big thing to do with it.

ayanasioux:

Gesh, can I get to my point? o_O
My point is that if you hear some of the things some of (a lot of, at least the ones that live around me) say about their race, it's kind of disappointing. To them their natural hair is nigger hair and bad hair. Straight hair is good to them. Dark skin is bad and made fun of especially when it comes to girls. The lighter the skin the better. It's like, light skin is the best thing ever. Light eyes are better too, so wearing colored contacts to lighten their dark eyes is what some of them do. Now you might not understand how it feels but it makes me feel horrible. It's almost like it's bad to be who we are, black.

Now you can make that out as however the hell you want to make it out but I'm telling you that slavery has a big thing to do with it.

Well that doesn't have so much to do with slavery as it does with just being a minority having to deal with social norms. When the majority of people are white, and it is believed that to be white is to be beautiful, then there are going to be people who wish they could be so they can fit in better. I can see how the history of slavery and segregation has also influenced it, but it's also naturally there.

LEAF.:

Well this is the History board, right?
A perfect example of Africans mistreating other African slaves would be what was once known as the kingdom of Dahomey. It's located in what is now the Republic of Benin. It was an extremely violent African kingdom that reached it's height in power around when the Portuguese arrived in Africa. They traded slaves for European firearms and other goods, to expand their territory and in doing so taking even more slaves for themselves. These slaves consisted of many different ethnic groups within Africa. They had different cultures, languages, and religion. They were all culturally integrated into Dahomey in a similar way that they were in America, only here instead of being put to work on cotton or tobacco fields for the rest of their lives, one of two things happened to the slaves that were taken by Dahomey. They were either traded to the Portugese in exchange for other goods, or they were sacrificed en masse by the king to show his power. They were beheaded in the thousands, with the exception of the king's wives, who were mostly buried alive.

As for the rest of your questions, the original reason Europe journeyed to Africa was actually to bypass the Mediterranean Sea and the Middle East. Because back then, goods from Asia were extremely valued in Europe but their flow into European trading posts was filled with taxes and controlled entirely by the Muslim Empire. It was Henry the Navigator, a prince of the kingdom of Portugal, who decided to travel and map out all of the coastline of Africa in order to find an alternate route to Asia. Once Europe found it's own way to Asia there was a power shift. Islam was no longer the powerful Empire it once was, and Europe grew exponentially as it continued to to conquer the world through colonies everywhere it could reach.

Now, slavery in the United States... first of all, something that you should know is that no one in the US believed slavery was illegal until after it was abolished at the end of the Civil War, and even then people still wanted slavery to persist.

The British colonies in the US, actually, began as plantations owned by rich aristocrats from overseas and the fields were mostly worked by indentured servants from Britain, as well as some African slaves, but they were few in number and were treated much, much better than slaves that would come in the following several decades. The north's environment didn't allow for the growing of crops like the south did, so the north specialized in industrialization. They had no need for slaves, but as people saw how profitable the plantation model was, more people did it. More land was taken by Native Americans to fuel more and more tobacco and cotton plantations. It got to the level in the south where there wasn't enough indentured servants to go around, and African slaves became more and more common. This continued up until the eve of the Civil War. Near the end of the war slavery was abolished, yes, but it was not because they thought slavery was illegal. The real reason slavery was abolished in the US was to completely cripple the south's economy, allowing the North to easily win the war and keep the country unified.

Okay, where are you getting this info from because some of the things you're saying is different from what I've learned?

And you do know that African religions weren't only changed for the people who were formal slaves in the US right? It also happened when Europeans came to Africa and changed a lot of the religious beliefs. Have you ever looked on a map of Africa on the different religions that are practice in Africa? If you notice a lot of the people their are either Catholic, Christian or Muslim. Do you think that most of the African population always practiced those religions? Muslim, maybe but not so much Catholic and Christian.

Oh and Apartheid is just a weak alibi for segregation AND slavery (you'll only find this out if you look into the dirty part of it) and some more fucked up shit.

LEAF.:

Well that doesn't have so much to do with slavery as it does with just being a minority having to deal with social norms. When the majority of people are white, and it is believed that to be white is to be beautiful, then there are going to be people who wish they could be so they can fit in better. I can see how the history of slavery and segregation has also influenced it, but it's also naturally there.

Hahahahaha NO. Otherwise I would be that way and I'm not. There are plenty of other races that don't say those kinds of things the way black say it. Hispanics are even more of a minority and they don't say that kind of shit. I see them, I know them and they're proud of their cultures and they're very aware about it. You could ask any black person in America "What culture are you?" And I bet they'd say black. Black is not a culture, I don't care what anyone says. If you ask some random white person they'd probably say "Oh I'm French, German and blah blah blah" The only black people who know who they are were born somewhere in Africa or their parents were born somewhere in Africa. Hell, I don't even know what the fuck I am. But I at least I know my great grandfather is Scottish. Ain't that some shit? I only know that my great grandfather was Scottish.

Because of the dehumanization that had taken place with African Americans in history, it causes a lot of black people to think lowly of their natural selves. It has been engraved in a lot of our minds that black and bad and ugly.