Slavery and Segregation vs. Holocaust

ayanasioux:

Mostly proof. History teachers have said it, my dad has said it. It's quite obvious (if you live in America) can't believe you're making room to doubt it.

I think living in America is clouding your judgement more so than improving it. What your claiming isn't even something that can be proved and essentially undermines any ethnic or social struggle of other groups of people.

It's common what you all are doing, taking defense, and most humans do it. Try to find any other solution than the big reason that's kind of in-front of their face to protect your name as being a white person. When stuff like this is discussed, a lot of us take defense on or behalves and I understand that. A lot of us are doing it unknowingly and a lot of us are doing it because of habit.

Plenty of other races have been exposed to many white people and haven't thought such inferior thoughts about themselves so I find to improbable to claim that the reason a lot of blacks favor whiter or mixed features has anything to do with what the majority of people are doing that they live around. It's much more than just "what the common people are doing" because if that were the case, black people would wear their hair however the hell they wanted to wear it, natural or not. If that were the case all white people would straighten their hair if the majority of people are doing it and that is not the case. But I'll tell you this, nine times out of ten black girls will perm their hair.

I honestly think it affects female blacks in comparison to male blacks. If a girl comes to school with their hair natural I'll bet she'll get a hell of a lot of crass comments and jokes towards her. I don't believe that that's just from "the majority of the people". There's no persuading here. This is something I've noticed over the coarse of living with the majority of black people for YEARS and most of my life. I've got to know both sides especially the black side and I highly doubt any of you have gotten as into their thoughts as I have.

ayanasioux:

It's common what you all are doing, taking defense, and most humans do it. Try to find any other solution than the big reason that's kind of in-front of their face to protect your name as being a white person. When stuff like this is discussed, a lot of us take defense on or behalves and I understand that. A lot of us are doing it unknowingly and a lot of us are doing it because of habit.

Defense to what, exactly? If anything my judgement on this matter is neutral. I'm not trying to defend the whites nor am I attempting to glorify the blacks. I've been taking facts from both sides, as well as other places, to point out that it doesn't really matter which is worse because they both SUCK.

LEAF.:

Defense to what, exactly? If anything my judgement on this matter is neutral. I'm not trying to defend the whites nor am I attempting to glorify the blacks. I've been taking facts from both sides, as well as other places, to point out that it doesn't really matter which is worse because they both SUCK.

So tell me, do you think the majority of the black and the reason for most black's feelings of inferiority mainly have to do with following the popular group and doesn't have a lot to do about slavery?

Kurtni Von Teese:

I think living in America is clouding your judgement more so than improving it. What your claiming isn't even something that can be proved and essentially undermines any ethnic or social struggle of other groups of people.

Actually I think being black and being analytical has to do with it. Besides, we're talking about the affects slavery has on black people today now.

I'm probably late on most of this and I've read a couple of pages, but when thinking about this topic, I've never thought about which was worse. I've always compared them and knew that both were treated poorly by other races. The one thing that stuck out to me was the fact that the Blacks and Jews supposely had certain features that all people of that ethnic group had. The Blacks and Jews were being compared to rodents and animals. What happened to both groups was horribly wrong, but nothing to compete about in my book.

---

As far as being black in America today as a black female. I've actually gone natural with my hair. Not perming it for a year and I was never made fun of. I'm dark skin, my mother is Dominican and my father is Black. Never in my life have I been made fun of because of my skin color (not even at an all white school). I don't want to be white or look white. I didn't know having straight hair made me want to be white all of a sudden... when it's natural and just falls like that. I get perms because I hate curly hair.

I'm proud of who I am and my what my dark skin represents. I'm sorry to some who think my skin color is bad (as in today). I have been treated and looked at different because "I don't look black" as most people who talk to me have said, but that's what I identify with. Black.

I would never disrespect where I came from or the people I came from. Sorry if this part is off topic.

Why does a few of your friends perming their hair make you think that has something to do with slavery?

White girls with curly hair straighten it... It's just what's in right now. It has nothing to do with race.
I have curly hair... I straighten it. What of it?

My friend straightens her hair.... she's black. She does it because she likes the way it looks and its easier to manage. She doesn't feel inferior in any way shape or form.

I don't see how some people straightening their hair to fit in makes you think that slavery was worse than the slaughter of millions of men, women, and children.

Not that either one was worse than the other, I'm just saying you're not making any sense.

People doing things to fit in with the majority does not mean it has something to do with slavery.

Before you say they're doing something because they feel inferior... maybe you should stop and think.. "Do other races do it too?"

double >:(

JessiBeLevitt:

Why does a few of your friends perming their hair make you think that has something to do with slavery?

White girls with curly hair straighten it... It's just what's in right now. It has nothing to do with race.
I have curly hair... I straighten it. What of it?

While I don't agree with ayanasioux's view that it's down to racism, I can see what she's trying to say.

It's not neccesarily what's 'in'. Black people perming their hair is making their hair like white hair. In Indian culture, being paler is better. I use some gentle skin lightening cream (it's not like some fake tan stuff, it's just meant to brighten your complexion) because that's what's preferable. Lighter skin = better for many coloured people. Lighter eyes, white hair, etc is usually what's preferred.

What she's saying is that it's the influence of slavery. I'm saying that it's the influence of simply being in a country that is majority white and it's simply the influence of being around a lot of white people etc.

ayanasioux:

So tell me, do you think the majority of the black and the reason for most black's feelings of inferiority mainly have to do with following the popular group and doesn't have a lot to do about slavery?

Yes, I do. I genuinely do.

I'm not black, but from my own personal experience, that's the impression I get.

^I agree with what you were saying, I was saying the hair had more to do with the style that's in right now, because eventually it will change and some other hair style will be in. Maybe then people will be curling or crimping their hair. It's not just because it's the 'white' style. I do understand what you're saying about the skin color though. That makes more sense than what she's trying to say with the hair. But I still don't understand the point in blaming people for being white. She'll deny it, but it really appears to be what she's doing. What else are we supposed to do? We're white... are we supposed to NOT be white so there aren't as many of us so people don't feel the need to look white?

Slavery was horrible. The Holocaust was horrible.

Why compare them? Just for the sake of debate, I would say the dehumanization of the Jews was worse. Just because they slaughtered millions. MILLIONS. As opposed to making people work in horrible conditions and holding them against their will. Still horrible. You bring up segregation. They couldn't sit in certain places, etc etc we all know they were barred from doing things. Horrible, while Jews sat in camps wondering if they were going to be fed, or if they were going to be shot, or if the hell that was their life would ever end, if they would ever see their families again.

Both horrible, but one has numbers on its side.

Now, I feel horrible for comparing the two, because I know slavery and segregation was horrible as well as you do, whether you admit it or not. I say this because you've never had to deal with it. You can protest all you want, but you weren't there. You WOULDN'T know what it was like. None of us do. We can discuss till we're blue in the face, but it all boils down to that.

Why even get angry about what other people say was worse?

sunflowers.:

While I don't agree with ayanasioux's view that it's down to racism, I can see what she's trying to say.

It's not neccesarily what's 'in'. Black people perming their hair is making their hair like white hair. In Indian culture, being paler is better. I use some gentle skin lightening cream (it's not like some fake tan stuff, it's just meant to brighten your complexion) because that's what's preferable. Lighter skin = better for many coloured people. Lighter eyes, white hair, etc is usually what's preferred.

What she's saying is that it's the influence of slavery. I'm saying that it's the influence of simply being in a country that is majority white and it's simply the influence of being around a lot of white people etc.

sunflowers.:

Yes, I do. I genuinely do.

I'm not black, but from my own personal experience, that's the impression I get.

I don't agree with that, I'm sorry. Because other races in America don't think the same. And I seriously doubt "what's in" has anything to do with it because many people I know that are black have been doing this over a course of... hell, since hair relaxer was invented.

And Lonna Lullaby.... I'm not saying that ALL black people think that they're inferior, I'm saying that the majority of them have that in their head (most of the times unknowingly) and I believe that slavery has a big influence on it.

Oh and it's not like the majority of the world is white either so remember people... that I'm talking about America, not everywhere else in the world.
I bet you in Africa everyone's not trying to relax their hair. Have you ever wondered why? Why is it that AFTER slavery and all that other BS that blacks wanted their hair straight? Why is it that straight hair for them has be "in" for blacks for so long even when there were plenty of times in history when straight hair wasn't "in"?

JessiBeLevitt:

^I agree with what you were saying, I was saying the hair had more to do with the style that's in right now, because eventually it will change and some other hair style will be in. Maybe then people will be curling or crimping their hair. It's not just because it's the 'white' style. I do understand what you're saying about the skin color though. That makes more sense than what she's trying to say with the hair. But I still don't understand the point in blaming people for being white. She'll deny it, but it really appears to be what she's doing. What else are we supposed to do? We're white... are we supposed to NOT be white so there aren't as many of us so people don't feel the need to look white?

Slavery was horrible. The Holocaust was horrible.

Why compare them? Just for the sake of debate, I would say the dehumanization of the Jews was worse. Just because they slaughtered millions. MILLIONS. As opposed to making people work in horrible conditions and holding them against their will. Still horrible. You bring up segregation. They couldn't sit in certain places, etc etc we all know they were barred from doing things. Horrible, while Jews sat in camps wondering if they were going to be fed, or if they were going to be shot, or if the hell that was their life would ever end, if they would ever see their families again.

Both horrible, but one has numbers on its side.

Now, I feel horrible for comparing the two, because I know slavery and segregation was horrible as well as you do, whether you admit it or not. I say this because you've never had to deal with it. You can protest all you want, but you weren't there. You WOULDN'T know what it was like. None of us do. We can discuss till we're blue in the face, but it all boils down to that.

Why even get angry about what other people say was worse?

Can you tell me something? Why are YOU always the one jumping right to race? What does this have to do with being white?

But I will say racism has another factor in the thoughts.

More black people have gone natural as comparison to how it was many years ago (although straight is still "in")

And now I'm seeing the true colors of what ya'll (you in particular... Jessi) are thinking It's what I've been trying to dig at since I started this whole damn forum which goes right back to what I discussed with Matt Smith. And I see and know why this is. Just trying to inform a lot of people about the truth that is hidden.

ayanasioux:

I don't agree with that, I'm sorry. Because other races in America don't think the same. And I seriously doubt "what's in" has anything to do with it because many people I know that are black have been doing this over a course of... hell, since hair relaxer was invented.

And Lonna Lullaby.... I'm not saying that ALL black people think that they're inferior, I'm saying that the majority of them have that in their head (most of the times unknowingly) and I believe that slavery has a big influence on it.

Oh and it's not like the majority of the world is white either so remember people... that I'm talking about America, not everywhere else in the world.
I bet you in Africa everyone's not trying to relax their hair. Have you ever wondered why? Why is it that AFTER slavery and all that other BS that blacks wanted their hair straight? Why is it that straight hair for them has be "in" for blacks for so long even when there were plenty of times in history when straight hair wasn't "in"?

Which other races?
You often use the argument that 'you're not black and unless you know a black person you don't know what you're talking about' to be quite honest. So how do you know that other races don't feel the same, if you can't see it from their eyes? I am a walking example of another race who feels that way, aren't I?

Your point about everyone in Africa not wanting to relax their hair re-inforces my point, really. Maybe that's because there is less of a white influence in Africa and it's not white people's faces plastered across billboards and white girls on the covers of fashion magazines in Africa?

The hair analogy, as Jessi said is getting a bit messy and confusing though.

sunflowers.:

Which other races?
You often use the argument that 'you're not black and unless you know a black person you don't know what you're talking about' to be quite honest. So how do you know that other races don't feel the same, if you can't see it from their eyes? I am a walking example of another race who feels that way, aren't I?

Your point about everyone in Africa not wanting to relax their hair re-inforces my point, really. Maybe that's because there is less of a white influence in Africa and it's not white people's faces plastered across billboards and white girls on the covers of fashion magazines in Africa?

The hair analogy, as Jessi said is getting a bit messy and confusing though.

It should only get confusing if you're not following it right.

I'm being extremely vague with my explanations in most of my comments because I'm tried or busy nine times out of the ten times I'm posting it so sorry if it gets confusing and choppy.

I mean other races in America feel the same and I do mean if you don't know a black person then you don't know what you're talking about. But I know a vast variety of races and dehumanization was strong on African Americans a long while ago because of slavery and so the feelings of looking too much like a "nigger" is stuck in the conscious of many black people. When girls say "nigger hair" and when my neighbor says he doesn't want to get darker or have "nappy" hair because he'll look like a slave, are you going to tell me that that's because of "what's in"? I don't know where else the term nigger was ever used other than slavery.

JessiBeLevitt:

Slavery was horrible. The Holocaust was horrible.

Why compare them? Just for the sake of debate, I would say the dehumanization of the Jews was worse. Just because they slaughtered millions. MILLIONS. As opposed to making people work in horrible conditions and holding them against their will. Still horrible. You bring up segregation. They couldn't sit in certain places, etc etc we all know they were barred from doing things. Horrible, while Jews sat in camps wondering if they were going to be fed, or if they were going to be shot, or if the hell that was their life would ever end, if they would ever see their families again.

Now, I feel horrible for comparing the two, because I know slavery and segregation was horrible as well as you do, whether you admit it or not. I say this because you've never had to deal with it. You can protest all you want, but you weren't there. You WOULDN'T know what it was like. None of us do. We can discuss till we're blue in the face, but it all boils down to that.

Oh yeah and this goes back the "the hidden truth" I was talking about. Yeah, of course the number of Jew's deaths were calculated and added up but do you know that Slaves were killed in high numbers also? In the beginning (during the middle passage) it wasn't calculated because they were slaves and not counted as citizens at all or used by their names at all therefore it is unknown of how many of them died. But I'll tell you something, the number aren't just a slim 100 or 1,000 or probably not even 10,000.

ayanasioux:

Oh yeah and this goes back the "the hidden truth" I was talking about. Yeah, of course the number of Jew's deaths were calculated and added up but do you know that Slaves were killed in high numbers also? In the beginning (during the middle passage) it wasn't calculated because they were slaves and not counted as citizens at all or used by their names at all therefore it is unknown of how many of them died. But I'll tell you something, the number aren't just a slim 100 or 1,000 or probably not even 10,000.

I agree with the last bit. Also, I would like to add that Blacks death in the South during the 60's probably werent counted for because hanging black folks and setting their bodies on fire was legal.

JessiBeLevitt:

As opposed to making people work in horrible conditions and holding them against their will. Still horrible. You bring up segregation. They couldn't sit in certain places, etc etc we all know they were barred from doing things. Horrible, while Jews sat in camps wondering if they were going to be fed, or if they were going to be shot, or if the hell that was their life would ever end, if they would ever see their families again.

But you have to remember that we're referring to slavery, not just segregation and that slavery was much more traumatic than segregation in many ways. It wasn't just 'not being allowed to do things' for slaves. Many slaves must have also suffered from not knowing when they were going to be fed, being beaten, abused, whether they would see their families again.
Probably not quite on the scale of the Holocaust, but still something to remember.

But, to be quite honest just discussing which could be seen as worse makes me very uncomfortable. I don't like the idea of it being some sort of competition of who's suffering was worse. I find the concept of looking at how the Holocaust/Slavery has effected people's perceptions of themselves now interesting to discuss. But the which is worse? Something that I don't think can, or should be taken further.

ayanasioux:

So tell me, do you think the majority of the black and the reason for most black's feelings of inferiority mainly have to do with following the popular group and doesn't have a lot to do about slavery?

It has to do with both. Popular opinion and slavery both played their roles in it. Today slavery itself isn't as present as popular opinion, but the impact of it is. Also, if you really want to get into that, when slavery was legal in the United States, slavery WAS the popular opinion.

ayanasioux:

So tell me, do you think the majority of the black and the reason for most black's feelings of inferiority mainly have to do with following the popular group and doesn't have a lot to do about slavery?

I have a question. If, maybe in the next couple of years, curling someone's hair was going to be "in" with popular culture, do you still think blacks would be straightening or perming their hair, or do you think they would curl it?

ayanasioux:

I mean other races in America feel the same and I do mean if you don't know a black person then you don't know what you're talking about. But I know a vast variety of races and dehumanization was strong on African Americans a long while ago because of slavery and so the feelings of looking too much like a "nigger" is stuck in the conscious of many black people. When girls say "nigger hair" and when my neighbor says he doesn't want to get darker or have "nappy" hair because he'll look like a slave, are you going to tell me that that's because of "what's in"? I don't know where else the term nigger was ever used other than slavery.

I don't understand why you keep using that term for hair.
If its an offensive term, don't use it.
Quotes dont make it any better.

Were you around when hair relaxers were invented? I'm curious.
They straighten their hair, because it's in. I don't think if you asked someone who has straightened their hair why they do it they'd say "Because I want to look white, because my ancestors were slaves."
It's not ONLY blacks who straighten their hair is what I'm getting at.
And straight hair is not a strictly 'white' trait. Like I said, I have wavy-ish hair. I am also white. I straighten my hair. I think it looks better. I think it looks better on everyone, regardless of skin color.

Why does hair have to do anything with race? You're the one who brought it up in the first place, weren't you?
It's a style of hair. A lot of people want straight hair, and I'm sure it doesn't have anything to do with white people or slavery. I'm sure in the recent past all races were curling their hair or putting up in bee hives. It's a style thing, I'm pretty sure there are no racial tensions behind it.