Slavery and Segregation vs. Holocaust

ayanasioux:

Yes and that still proves me point. Tell me something, do you think that if there wasn't even slavery and segregation in the first place black people would feel bad about their race as much as they do? I want to know what YOU think the feelings are coming from now. I've shared where I think they come from.

I'm saying that slavery and segregation are minor players in comparison to the power that racism holds over people. You're blaming the branches while I'm blaming the trunk of the tree.

I'm not saying that slavery, segregation, or racism is the ONLY thing that causes of thinking this way. As humans, sadly, we are not that simple minded. Yes, everything that you said that contributes to the problem is indeed contributing, but it isn't the ONLY reason. Interactions with your peers and the media are also important. If someone told you that you look beautiful because of the style of your hair and the color of your skin, and then later someone said that you look ugly because of those same features, wouldn't both those opinions have some effect on the way in which you look at yourself?

LEAF.:

I'm saying that slavery and segregation are minor players in comparison to the power that racism holds over people. You're blaming the branches while I'm blaming the trunk of the tree.

I'm not saying that slavery, segregation, or racism is the ONLY thing that causes of thinking this way. As humans, sadly, we are not that simple minded. Yes, everything that you said that contributes to the problem is indeed contributing, but it isn't the ONLY reason. Interactions with your peers and the media are also important. If someone told you that you look beautiful because of the style of your hair and the color of your skin, and then later someone said that you look ugly because of those same features, wouldn't both those opinions have some effect on the way in which you look at yourself?

Hahaha, okay, now it almost sounds like you're beating around the truth.
Have you ever head of manifest destiny?

ayanasioux:

Hahaha, okay, now it almost sounds like you're beating around the truth.
Have you ever head of manifest destiny?

Yeah, that would be the belief that it was America's god-given right to expand and conquer in order to reach the Pacific Ocean. What does that have to do with the topic at hand?
And I'm hardly beating around the truth. I just said what I think on the matter, that it is a combination of several factors, some historical and some present, that cause us to view ourselves in a certain light every day.

LEAF.:

Yeah, that would be the belief that it was America's god-given right to expand and conquer in order to reach the Pacific Ocean. What does that have to do with the topic at hand?
And I'm hardly beating around the truth. I just said what I think on the matter, that it is a combination of several factors, some historical and some present, that cause us to view ourselves in a certain light every day.

Well it's manifest destiny that made whites believe that they were the superior race. That is why they treated other races much more poorly than their own. That's where racism came in. They believed that they were better than enslaved Africans so they treated them poorly and called them out of their names many times. Such as nigger, nappy headed, coon, jigaboo, blacky, black spook, the whole nine.

No matter what you say, I know that slavery is the prime factor as to why blacks feel that way about themselves today.

ayanasioux:

No matter what you say, I know that slavery is the prime factor as to why blacks feel that way about themselves today.

Would you explain why, please?
And if you could why you 'know' my own opinion that it's the influence of living in a 'white' society that's had a direct effect on how black people feel about themselves, is a wrong one?
It's the same as how everyone says there's a lot of pressure on girls to be skinny because women on tv/adverts/catwalks are skinny. The majority of the women on billboards are white. The majority of the girls at my school are white. The popular, pretty girls are all usually white, hence the urge to want whiter features. Why is that not valid? Because I'm fairly sure that's the reason behind these feelings, not slavery.

ayanasioux:

Well it's manifest destiny that made whites believe that they were the superior race. That is why they treated other races much more poorly than their own. That's where racism came in. They believed that they were better than enslaved Africans so they treated them poorly and called them out of their names many times. Such as nigger, nappy headed, coon, jigaboo, blacky, black spook, the whole nine.

Actually, its more along the lines of the fact that whites ALREADY believed they were the superior race, and when the idea of Manifest Destiny came to attention, naturally, their white superiority leaked into it. Racism predates Manifest Destiny by centuries.

ayanasioux:

No matter what you say, I know that slavery is the prime factor as to why blacks feel that way about themselves today.

So, it's because they were enslaved is the reason, not because they were abused while they were enslaved, but just the fact that they were enslaved is enough?

Whoa, wait... I can't use my friends, but apparently YOUR friends are the majority of the black population?

Well, I'll be damned.

There's really no discussion here is there?
All you're going to do is say that since I'm white that I'll never understand, and that no matter how many friends I have that tell me one thing, it's always going to be wrong.

And it seems that YOU'RE the one dodging the truth by saying media has nothing to do with it. Media tells ME that I have to be tan or I'm not attractive. I feel bad for my light skin.
My friend LOVES her skin, and only complains about having to use lotion more often to keep it from getting ashy.
None of my other friends care, and they actually laughed when I read off a few of your opinions and 'facts' about the majority of the black population.

You are not the majority. You are one.

We are discussing, yes? All you're doing is saying that you understand better because you are black, that doesn't help the discussion.

Back to the original question of the topic, neither one was worse. They were both horrible occurrences in the past. They were both dehumanizing, neither one was worse than the other.

sunflowers.:

Would you explain why, please?
And if you could why you 'know' my own opinion that it's the influence of living in a 'white' society that's had a direct effect on how black people feel about themselves, is a wrong one?
It's the same as how everyone says there's a lot of pressure on girls to be skinny because women on tv/adverts/catwalks are skinny. The majority of the women on billboards are white. The majority of the girls at my school are white. The popular, pretty girls are all usually white, hence the urge to want whiter features. Why is that not valid? Because I'm fairly sure that's the reason behind these feelings, not slavery.

And I'm telling you that its not. I'll tell you one thing, I don't know how it is in your school but the popular "pretty" girl is most definitely not white. The people you notice the most at my school are black. The white girls are trying to fit in to the predominately black population. And still these thoughts of "good hair" being being straight hair is plastered in their minds.

Now on your behalf, that's probably why you wish to be lighter and have straight hair but that's not the case with most black people sweetie, I'm sorry.

LEAF.:

So, it's because they were enslaved is the reason, not because they were abused while they were enslaved, but just the fact that they were enslaved is enough?

Hahaha, don't you get what I'm saying? All of that comes with the institution of slavery. If it had no existed, the whole inferior thoughts probably would not have happened.
Same goes for the victims of the holocaust. Because they were enslaved and beaten when they did little to nothing wrong, it made them think poorly of themselves because of their race being the reason to why they're being punished.

If it had to do with just abuse alone, I bet you'd see a lot of Native American uncle Toms or Asian but I sure as hell don't see that shit no where.

JessiBeLevitt:

Whoa, wait... I can't use my friends, but apparently YOUR friends are the majority of the black population?

Well, I'll be damned.

There's really no discussion here is there?
All you're going to do is say that since I'm white that I'll never understand, and that no matter how many friends I have that tell me one thing, it's always going to be wrong.

And it seems that YOU'RE the one dodging the truth by saying media has nothing to do with it. Media tells ME that I have to be tan or I'm not attractive. I feel bad for my light skin.
My friend LOVES her skin, and only complains about having to use lotion more often to keep it from getting ashy.
None of my other friends care, and they actually laughed when I read off a few of your opinions and 'facts' about the majority of the black population.

You are not the majority. You are one.

We are discussing, yes? All you're doing is saying that you understand better because you are black, that doesn't help the discussion.

Back to the original question of the topic, neither one was worse. They were both horrible occurrences in the past. They were both dehumanizing, neither one was worse than the other.

HAHAHA HAAAAAAA! You don't see where I'm coming from. You know nothing about where I'm from. I don' t know about you but I know that Illinois or where ever you live does not have a high population of black people AT ALL.

Girl, I grew up in a place where there wasn't a white face to spot out in the middle of the day. I remember two people going to my whole school that were white (my whole damn school) and they were trailer park people.

Never did I say that the media has nothing to do with it. I just believe that isn't the biggest factor. Hair is totally different from skin. Skin is one of the things that is very difficult from changing without EXTREME work. Once your ass is black YOU'RE BLACK. The saying "once you go black you never go back" has double meanings and it wasn't just pulled out of the ass.

What do your friends know? I'm an observer and a damn good ass one too. My friends have nothing to do with what I've observed. I know black, I feel black, I breath black, I see black, I live with black I AM black. I'm around all of it everyday and I swear everyday I hear that crazy "light-skinned, nigger hair" shit. I know much more than I'm saying because I know what the reactions I'll get will be and I'm not up for it.

I'm saying that because you're white, it's natural for you to feel a sense of direct blame and possibly hatred whenever race discussions regarding white people in a somewhat negative way are at hand. I've OBSERVED you enough to know how you get about these kinds of topics. It's clear as day girl. You take discussions about race as if it's directed towards you nine times out of ten and you take it to a personal matter when it has nothing to do with you. You always have an insecurity about blame a lot. I know because you often make comments like "I'm not the one who enslaved black people; what my ancestors did has nothing to do with me. I'm tired of people blaming ME for slavery like it's my fault what my ancestors did." That's the wrong way to think.

You get upset when you feel that black people are getting way more privatizes than whites when in reality is whites will always have the upper hand. I'm sorry to say it but sometimes you can be very blind to the struggles and shit black people have to go through today (same with a lot of white people) and you know what, maybe you'll never see it. I feel like you can get a little envious sometimes. You're in the shallow water when it comes to discussions about race. You need to dive in with your eyes open and see what's really there and hidden.

I've said my peace.

ayanasioux:

Hahaha, don't you get what I'm saying? All of that comes with the institution of slavery. If it had no existed, the whole inferior thoughts probably would not have happened.
Same goes for the victims of the holocaust. Because they were enslaved and beaten when they did little to nothing wrong, it made them think poorly of themselves because of their race being the reason to why they're being punished.

If it had to do with just abuse alone, I bet you'd see a lot of Native American uncle Toms or Asian but I sure as hell don't see that shit no where.

Did you even read my last post? I said that racism, which includes "the whole inferior thoughts" PREDATE slavery, especially the European concept of slavery that you're talking about.

The reason why people are mistreated based on the color of their skin or culture is called RACISM, not slavery. Slavery is a very possible by-product of racism. Racism gives them a reason to beat them, if they don't have a reason, why bother beating them? Slavery is merely an institution based on that reason.

Native Americans we'rent abused, they were just killed off in the millions due to airborne germs and warfare and forced to live in isolation from the Europeans. How could direct abuse that results in an uncle tom even happen in that kind of situation?

ayanasioux:

Now on your behalf, that's probably why you wish to be lighter and have straight hair but that's not the case with most black people sweetie, I'm sorry.

Using words like 'sweetie' is considered patronising to other users and will result in a ban from the forums if you keep it up. Similarly, using phrases like 'hahaha' in a debate just looks immature and I would advise against it.

ayanasioux:

And I'm telling you that its not. I'll tell you one thing, I don't know how it is in your school but the popular "pretty" girl is most definitely not white. The people you notice the most at my school are black. The white girls are trying to fit in to the predominately black population. And still these thoughts of "good hair" being being straight hair is plastered in their minds.

Now on your behalf, that's probably why you wish to be lighter and have straight hair but that's not the case with most black people sweetie, I'm sorry.

First of all, please don't call me sweetie. I'm older than you from what I can tell, so I'd rather you didn't treat me like I'm 5 years old.

Secondly, 'I'm telling you it's not' isn't really a valid argument. I don't expect you to believe my point of view straight off the bat, I was asking for a slight expansion on your point of view, since all you were saying is 'i'm black, therefore i know more than you', to put it bluntly.

Also, I'm sorry but you don't know the case for 'most black people'. You know the case, possibly for the black people in your area, from your kind of background, from your social circle, maybe. But does that include black people living in a village in Africa? Does that include black people who go to my school in London? Does that include middle-aged black women in a high profile job? You see my point.

I'm making the effort to point out that my view is from my own experience, although I'm not black and I'm admitting that it's opinion. You seem to have this assumption that what you're saying is cold, hard fact that applies to every black person on the planet.

LEAF.:

Did you even read my last post? I said that racism, which includes "the whole inferior thoughts" PREDATE slavery, especially the European concept of slavery that you're talking about.

The reason why people are mistreated based on the color of their skin or culture is called RACISM, not slavery. Slavery is a very possible by-product of racism. Racism gives them a reason to beat them, if they don't have a reason, why bother beating them? Slavery is merely an institution based on that reason.

Native Americans we'rent abused, they were just killed off in the millions due to airborne germs and warfare and forced to live in isolation from the Europeans. How could direct abuse that results in an uncle tom even happen in that kind of situation?

But if slavery never took place, Africans probably would have never even faced the racist face of whites. And Native Americans weren't just killed due to disease. It's much bigger than that.

sunflowers.:

First of all, please don't call me sweetie. I'm older than you from what I can tell, so I'd rather you didn't treat me like I'm 5 years old.

Secondly, 'I'm telling you it's not' isn't really a valid argument. I don't expect you to believe my point of view straight off the bat, I was asking for a slight expansion on your point of view, since all you were saying is 'i'm black, therefore i know more than you', to put it bluntly.

Also, I'm sorry but you don't know the case for 'most black people'. You know the case, possibly for the black people in your area, from your kind of background, from your social circle, maybe. But does that include black people living in a village in Africa? Does that include black people who go to my school in London? Does that include middle-aged black women in a high profile job? You see my point.

I'm making the effort to point out that my view is from my own experience, although I'm not black and I'm admitting that it's opinion. You seem to have this assumption that what you're saying is cold, hard fact that applies to every black person on the planet.

First of all, I say sweetie to everyone and it has nothing to do with age.
Second of all, you're missing all examples of my point of view and I really don't know why because throughout this whole debate "I'm black and I know more" is far from what I'm saying. I've told you about what people said, I've told you about how the human mind works in most cases and yet you seem to be missing it.
Third of all, I've been to TONS of places in my life even out of America and I've observed tons of people. And still your coming to me with your thoughts on the main cause of the inferior thoughts and yet you've probably haven't even seen HALF of the black people I've seen, witnessed and observed.

And when in history did slavery take place in Africa or London? I'm just asking for clarification.

Matt Smith:

Using words like 'sweetie' is considered patronising to other users and will result in a ban from the forums if you keep it up. Similarly, using phrases like 'hahaha' in a debate just looks immature and I would advise against it.

Aight.

ayanasioux:

Third of all, I've been to TONS of places in my life even out of America and I've observed tons of people. And still your coming to me with your thoughts on the main cause of the inferior thoughts and yet you've probably haven't even seen HALF of the black people I've seen, witnessed and observed.d

So you've asked random people outside the States? I'm just asking, because it seems highly unlikely. And how would you know what she has and hasn't seen? You said it yourself earlier. You haven't walked in her shoes.

And you don't have to leave your home country to see a lot of things. I could just as easily say you haven't seen HALF as many things I have seen. Also, as an aspiring psychologist, I observe people too. It's not special and most people do it. I can just as easily see that inferior thoughts are caused MOSTLY by the media, and have nothing to do with something that happened hundreds of years ago.

Quote

And when in history did slavery take place in Africa or London? I'm just asking for clarification.

I think you need to do some research.... For someone who's so set in their beliefs you don't have NEAR all the facts you need to be claiming the things you do.

Talks about slavery in Great Britain and goes on to talk about their freedom.
Slavery in Britain AND Ireland.
Slavery in Africa.
Slavery in MODERN Africa... So it's still going on.

So, here's the facts you're missing. Enjoy.

ayanasioux:

But if slavery never took place, Africans probably would have never even faced the racist face of whites. And Native Americans weren't just killed due to disease. It's much bigger than that.

Actually, they would have. Europe was in contact with Africa before the slave trade took place and they were just as racist back then, if not more so.

And I already said why the Native Americans were killed, thank you for repeating that. It's a historical fact though, that the majority of their people did die to disease, especially the epidemic that took place following Columbus' voyages. If so many of them didn't die off then, then it's likely that it would have taken the Europeans a lot longer to invade their territory, assuming it would have even been possible given that circumstance.

ayanasioux:

And when in history did slavery take place in Africa or London? I'm just asking for clarification.

I already said something about that earlier in this topic. It was common practice for warring tribes and kingdoms to take slaves captive and do unspeakable things to them. How the European slave trade began in the first place was simply their interference in the African slave trade. They gave the kingdoms they allied themselves with superior, European weapons, which allowed them to conquer farther inland, taking more slaves, which were traded back to the Europeans for even more weapons.

As for London, there wasn't as much need for slaves as there were in the British colonies in America, since the climate in the United Kingdom couldn't properly support the sugar and tobacco plantations the slaves were mainly used for. Despite that, however, slaves were also traded to London and, pretty much every other major city in Europe.

Well, slavery similar to the slavery in America is what I mean. The people enslaved in America come from COMPLETELY different backgrounds compared to slavery in other places.

And Jessi, asking people has nothing to do with what I said. Observation doesn't mean asking. To observe is the study something visual and listen. Not asking numerous questions on the subjects.
Yes, people do observe but not everyone observes as frequently and not everyone deciphers certain observations the same.
And I know in my heart that slavery has a big thing to do with it.

And just to prove my point, neither of you have came up with the answer to where else the term nigger was used other than during slavery or the after affects of it. So where does the term "nigger hair" come from or the term "looking like a slave" because I know they don't use that term on the media?

ayanasioux:

Well, slavery similar to the slavery in America is what I mean. The people enslaved in America come from COMPLETELY different backgrounds compared to slavery in other places.

That was due to a policy that was employed in all parts of the Americas, and not just the United States. People were taken from very different tribes in order to keep the slaves from uniting against their European masters due to differences in culture, religion, and most importantly, language. That's why they're so different. The more that I think about it, where DIDN'T that take place, exactly?

ayanasioux:

And Jessi, asking people has nothing to do with what I said. Observation doesn't mean asking. To observe is the study something visual and listen. Not asking numerous questions on the subjects.
Yes, people do observe but not everyone observes as frequently and not everyone deciphers certain observations the same.
And I know in my heart that slavery has a big thing to do with it.

That's true if you are trying to study something like a chemical reaction or physics problem, but it is not the case of Anthropology or Sociology, which is the kind of Observation you're talking about. To truly observe people you need to observe both as a distant observer and as a community member. Only by doing both can you paint a clear picture of the people you're studying.

ayanasioux:

And just to prove my point, neither of you have came up with the answer to where else the term nigger was used other than during slavery or the after affects of it. So where does the term "nigger hair" come from or the term "looking like a slave" because I know they don't use that term on the media?

Actually, coming from a historical standpoint, the word "nigger" came from the Spanish and Portuguese word "negro", which literally means the color black. It also meant people who are "black", when Africa was discovered by the Europeans, because they had much darker skin and were considered to be "black" in comparison to European "whites". It's a word that didn't translate intact from it's original pronunciation when it carried over into English. I'd say the reason it is associated with slavery is because in America, up until the civil war, almost all black people were slaves. Literally, having "nigger hair" really means having black hair or hair of black people, but because of the historical impact it's had because of slavery, yeah, I think you know what it means from that point.