Should It Be Legal to Pierce Your Infant Child's Ears?

Dirty Byrd:

And what exactly makes it a "cultural thing"? I don't quite understand that argument...

Some people have said their culture pierces ears very young. It just means it's a tradition within their culture.

faith in dru.:

I've heard that having ears pierced young is a cultural thing, but does really waiting until your kid say 'yes' completely destroy your cultural background?

No, it wouldn't in most cases, but when it is a cultural thing I'd say maybe 95 times out of a 100 the child isn't going to have a problem in it.
I don't come from a traditional family or a religious family, we're all pretty Westernised in the way we are. But I've never met an Indian girl without her ears pierced. Genuinely, I don't think I have, so it's a fair assumption to make when parents expect that their daughter will want her ears pierced anyway.

I can't obviously speak for everyone, but to me, I find it completely understandable that parents would just get it out of the way when they're daughter is young.

sunflowers.:

I can't obviously speak for everyone, but to me, I find it completely understandable that parents would just get it out of the way when they're daughter is young.

But why are young and infant who can't consent interchangeable? It's not like the ages of 2-5 are "old".

faith in dru.:

But why are young and infant who can't consent interchangeable? It's not like the ages of 2-5 are "old".

My point was, sure you can wait until your child consent, but if you're only waiting another year so that they can speak, I genuinely think it makes no difference because the child still had very little idea what they want at 3.

You say that if your mother had pierced your ears, you would be annoyed that she hadn't gotten your consent. But the consent would hardly be informed consent. Just because a child can speak, doesn't mean they know what they're getting themselves into. My four year old god brother always asks to eat fish. He hates fish, he won't touch it if you actually give it to him, but he claims to love it.
You can then get equally annoyed at your parents saying, 'why did you not wait until I could make an informed, sensible decision'.

sunflowers.:

My point was, sure you can wait until your child consent, but if you're only waiting another year so that they can speak, I genuinely think it makes no difference because the child still had very little idea what they want at 3.

You say that if your mother had pierced your ears, you would be annoyed that she hadn't gotten your consent. But the consent would hardly be informed consent. Just because a child can speak, doesn't mean they know what they're getting themselves into. My four year old god brother always asks to eat fish. He hates fish, he won't touch it if you actually give it to him, but he claims to love it.
You can then get equally annoyed at your parents saying, 'why did you not wait until I could make an informed, sensible decision'.

My problem is a three year old could easily say 'no', they don't want it. And I highly doubt the shop would allow you to pierce the ears of a toddler that's screaming and saying they don't want it. If they know at that age they don't, I think it's wrong to force it. People seem to be operating under the assumption that every toddler will want them. I didn't. I waited until third grade to get them 'cause that's when I was ready. And then after my ear ripped (and I got it fixed) I waited until eighth grade to do it again.

faith in dru.:

My problem is a three year old could easily say 'no', they don't want it. And I highly doubt the shop would allow you to pierce the ears of a toddler that's screaming and saying they don't want it. If they know at that age they don't, I think it's wrong to force it. People seem to be operating under the assumption that every toddler will want them. I didn't. I waited until third grade to get them 'cause that's when I was ready. And then after my ear ripped (and I got it fixed) I waited until eighth grade to do it again.

If a parent forces a child that is saying NO, and crying its head off, then I think that's not very nice, but just a few parents do something that we don't approve of, doesn't mean it should be illegal for everyone. Some kids force their child to go to piano lessons against their will or get ugly haircuts. Some kids may force their babies to go to daycare. Some parent's make their child enter beauty pagents and I think that's disgusting. But you can't make it illegal for all children because a few children may not want to. And if like you said, the shop is unlikely to do it on a child that is screaming, than surely that means it's unlikely to happen?

sunflowers.:

If a parent forces a child that is saying NO, and crying its head off, then I think that's not very nice, but just a few parents do something that we don't approve of, doesn't mean it should be illegal for everyone.

Is there anything wrong with waiting until a child can say 'yes' or 'no'?

faith in dru.:

Is there anything wrong with waiting until a child can say 'yes' or 'no'?

Of course not, and I never said there was.
But I also think it's perfectly plausible for a parent, especially when ear piercing is a highly common cultural practice, to pierce their child's ears when they are younger and haven't developed a phobia of needles etc.

sunflowers.:

My four year old god brother always asks to eat fish. He hates fish, he won't touch it if you actually give it to him, but he claims to love it.

My brother claimed that he could eat raw meat when he was 4. He obviously never actually eat it, but he asked for it all the time.

I don't know anybody who doesn't wear earrings and is resentful towards their parents for piercing their ears. I only wear earrings maybe once every two months (and then I do it because I don't want my ear holes to close up in case at some point in the future I'll want to wear them again) because I avoid wearing jewelry, but I certainly don't hold a grudge against my parents for it. The holes are barely noticeable so why would I? I also know a lot of people who got piercings in high school, afterwards came to regret them and now no longer wear piercings. If so many teenagers/young adults wish they hadn't have had piercings, I imagine 3 year olds would be much more prone to changing their mind about it later on.

sunflowers.:

Of course not, and I never said there was.
But I also think it's perfectly plausible for a parent, especially when ear piercing is a highly common cultural practice, to pierce their child's ears when they are younger and haven't developed a phobia of needles etc.

Do you think that laws and principles we base them on, should have exceptions which are founded in tradition or things that are socially acceptable?

Like, on principle, we oppose idk, rape - but since rape is socially acceptable within marriage, it's fine to rape your wife (unless you rough her up too much). Hypothetical scenario obviously.

Xsoteria:

Like, on principle, we oppose idk, rape - but since rape is socially acceptable within marriage, it's fine to rape your wife (unless you rough her up too much). Hypothetical scenario obviously.

Rape is no longer legal in a marriage. At least, not in the U.S.
(I don't really understand what you're saying. Sorry. >.<)

I think he's saying that making things legal because it's socially acceptable isn't always the right thing to do.
And I agree.

acorna wants to know:

I think he's saying that making things legal because it's socially acceptable isn't always the right thing to do.
And I agree.

Okay, that makes sense. I'm sorry, I just woke up.

faith in dru.:

Rape is no longer legal in a marriage. At least, not in the U.S.
(I don't really understand what you're saying. Sorry. >.<)

Well in some places that isn't the case. But yeah, what acorna said.

I believe that piercing the lobes of an infant is perfectly acceptable, and other facial piercings should be allowed if it is for cultural reasons. I had my lobes done for the first time when I was seven and it was because I had chosen to get them done and had adequate parental permission. I'm glad I could get it done at a young age, because I wouldn't have to go through the healing process of a lobe piercing at a later stage.

^ Well what we're really debating is whether it should be allowed if the child isn't old enough to give consent.

cosmonaut_.:

I believe that piercing the lobes of an infant is perfectly acceptable, and other facial piercings should be allowed if it is for cultural reasons. I had my lobes done for the first time when I was seven and it was because I had chosen to get them done and had adequate parental permission. I'm glad I could get it done at a young age, because I wouldn't have to go through the healing process of a lobe piercing at a later stage.

My lobe piercing healing process was nothing, really. I had it done in second grade, eighth grade, and tenth grade.

And how would you prove it was for cultural reasons [other facial piercings]?

I personally think that society is changing and with it so are children's views and opinions. I come from a large family. I'm 20 and I'm the eldest. Below me theres 17, 13, 8 and 6. The youngest is a boy, the rest of us are girls. (Weird story behind it all)

Anyway, I remember when I was younger getting ear piercings weren't really a big thing. Myself and my friends never really talked about it or wanted it. In fact, I didn't get my ear lobes pierced until last week. All of my friends got there's done around the age of 9/10. That was my time.

Then I look at my sister and her friends, they're all aged between 6-9. They've all got they're ears done, but my sister personally never asked for hers to be done until she was 7. That's her era.

I work with children in a preschool; ages 0 -5 and I've noticed that yes, a lot of the youngsters under 2 have their ears pierced, some a due to cultural beliefs, and I've also had a conversation with a 4 year old who was telling me that she'd like to hae her ears pierced too because she thinks that it's pretty and she would like to wear different colored diamonds in her ears. That is her era.

I think this whole ear piercing thing is sooo varied. It changes with time for a lot of people. Society is changing and the young are growing up so quickly. All the innocence is leaving them a lot earlier than before. So I can see why youngsters are asking for their ears pierced younger.

Also, I know a lady who pierced her child's ear at the age of 1 because she felt that it was just a typical girl thing and she wanted her child to have them done to be a typical girl and all that. That;s just her opinion.

I don't think it should be illegal, I just think it should be monitored carefully, especially in very young children as they have tendencies to pull and tug at everything and could damage their ears. If a child asks for it and the parents feels it's right and safe for their child, then sure, do it. But I don't think ti should be done if a child is refusing it.

/rant

wrecked up dru.:

And how would you prove it was for cultural reasons [other facial piercings]?

I think you'd pretty much have to assume with this one. Sometimes it's easy enough to tell, especially if a person is attending a school. The tutors, carers etc., will mostly be aware of their cultural background as parents often offer up that information. When a new child from a different culture registers with our preschool we do a lot of research into that culture both past and modern beliefs and ethics, just so that we can prepare for them. (different eating habits, routines etc.,)

But, outside of having that information, there's nothing you can really do I suppose, than just accept it.

^
So then you're also for the legalization of piercing lip, tongue, eyebrow, etc. in an infant?