Suicide

@ kafka.

Empowerment? Through telling them that their selfish? Is telling someone with severe enough depression to pull themselves together empowering too? I'm sorry but that is a major logical fallacy.

I'm finding this highly frustrating. Do you mean - essentially - that anyone working in the field of mental health and themselves have had mental health problems (which is likely since around one in four genpop will have issues in their lifetime) are what? Self-oppressing? Am I self-oppressing in being reliant on mental health services when I get so bad that I'm standing on window ledges again?

Like you've said to dru: there are many organisations that look out for people's mental health but they also give advice about financial management or other things in their life which is either creating their issues or at least making them worse. They also have similar services and organisations for people with cancer or what have you. These organisations are there to give help to people who are not coping with X, Y and Z in their life. They are not forced upon the individual but are there if they need help. Essentially, it is similar to the Citizen's Advice Buereau but a bit more specialised.

Cognitive biases in people are present in all people and things like cognitive behavioural therapy attempt to change the ones that are feeding the darkness. Counselling allows someone to talk about the shit they've went through to someone that at least looks as if they care. These therapies are as useful tools to say a criminal who wants to change their ways outside of prison or someone who has just been through something horrific. Is this a problem?

Also, listen. I'm no fan of medication or psychiatric wards. Far from it: medication does little without other things going on and is too over-prescribed by GPs and psychiatric wards can do more harm than good. But there are certain levels of disorganized schizophrenia and the latter stages of things like dementia that requires someone to make sure they're okay. Whether that comes with a carer at home making sure they don't hurt themselves, having alarm systems put into their home that is connected with a warden somewhere nearby or (if extremely severe) a specialised home or whatever to look after them. There is a breaking point where an individual cannot look after themselves (I've seen it and jesus, it kills you) then what can you do? There is no amount of empowerment on this earth that can bring them back: many schizophrenia sufferers have collapses in brain structure, likewise those with dementia. What does your country do with cases like that? Genuine interest here: do they let them be?

@ kafka.
I ended up trying to run away to Massachusetts less than a month later and the cops forced my parents to take me to care. I wouldn't say it was a support system that saved me, just the climax of my demise getting me caught.

Suicide is the third leading cause of death among young people; I have difficulty believing it's uncommon.

Like I said, I've already seeked out organizations like that. One day I spent six hours on the internet and called every place I could.

I hate it when people act like you always have access to medical care or care of mental illness. You don't. Unless I can't contract for safety, they won't even admit me to the ER. I have tried so much. There are very few places in my state that offer it and I've called them. Like I said, they're usually full and they tell me to call back in six months, which I do and they're full again. I once showed up to get rental assistance half an hour after a place opened and was told they were done for the day. It's not easy being single and poor in the U.S. You need to have a kid.

^ Agreed. As I said, just because you're not getting treatment doesn't mean you haven't asked for it. I was told, with fresh stitches in my arm, that they'd have a time for me in three months. Wat?

@ ailurophile bella.
I've also never been as helped by in-patient care as I could have been because I was quiet, intelligent, and polite. I didn't throw fits and scream the way other people did. Other hospitals misdiagnosed me.

My mom once stayed in a hospital for months. The hospital was shut down for implanting false memories in patients. My mother was convinced by her doctor she had been ritualistically sexually abused by Satanists and then put on a medication that made her manic. My mom has been put on so many wrong medications in her life that if she's given too much of a certain kind of chemical, she will die.

Hospitals that 'help' patients don't always help.

@ for dru's sins.
I wasn't helped by in-care either. It made my life so much worse, because I couldn't handle not being in control. And that wasn't a terrible hospital, they just treated everyone the same and my issues weren't the same as others in that place because they "just" had depression while I had Asperger's too.

@ The Master.

I didn't say that all mental health professionals actively choose to oppress people with mental health issues at all times - a lot of people within disability rights movements were/are medical professionals, I was merely trying to remind you that mental health professionals have been systematically abusing people for centuries so there's absolutely no reason to automatically consider everything a medical professional says as the pure, unbiased truth just because they're a medical professional. I am not the first person to point out that mental health services are still very paternalistic and discourages choice / autonomy - there's tones and tones of things already written about this, including very detailed studies about how this affects patients (e.g.). The problem is not that people reach out for help - it would be absurd to claim that mental illness is not real illness so it doesn't really require treatment - the problem is that mental health services currently encourage this idea that people with mental illness are very passive and very helpless, utterly incapable of making any kind of decisions for themselves and they need to be protected from themselves at all costs - by 'benevolent' mental health professionals.

I'm not sure why you'd think mental health services in Romania are empowering when I just said they're hideously ableist?

for dru's sins.:

@ kafka.
Suicide is the third leading cause of death among young people; I have difficulty believing it's uncommon.

That might be true, but life expectancy in the West is 75+ years so a teenager dying of anything is very uncommon. Although, re: the selfishness of suicide, around 40% of teen suicides are caused by young people losing a loved one to suicide.

Everything else in your post is anecdotal, I can't comment on it.

@ kafka.

Many of the comments levelled at psychiatric professionals are essentially the same as those aimed at medicine in general, social work and crime. If you're talking about centuries of abuse then can we even comment on it? Yes, the way that people with mental health issues has been at times awful (there are some parts of history in which those with mental health problems were treated a bit nicer than the norm. The Ancient...Greeks or Romans or something treated those with severe mental health problems with opium, oddly enough. There was also movements which I can only vaguely remember were change did happen and patients of such hospitals were treated far more humanely and obviously had better recovery results than elsewhere). I understand that it was totally shit, that many within historical psychiatric were horrendous. However, I do think that there is change within the system from even a few years ago. My psychiatrist asked me whether I felt that I needed medication or whether i should try without since I'm unresponsive to SSRIs and therefore, the next set of meds he would dish up are...not very nice. I do understand that not everyone's experiences of the system are good, that the whole "powerless" thing is still an issue but...I dunno, maybe I've been lucky? Maybe I've been lucky enough to meet the decent ones and maybe that clouds my judgement. I mean, I dislike my psychiatric nurse but she only takes control if I'm not responsive that day and she is otherwise fairly supportive. I've seen other people - even in my own family - struggle to find the right support within those services but it seems to be the few parts of my life that actually go okay for me...which is depressing as fuck in itself.

I would agree that having a less patronising system would make a better service and such but it cannot work with every type of mental health problem. Additionally, I still think it is not the best move to say to someone that topping yourself is selfish. Whether the act itself is selfish or not is far more philosophical than psychological. I do think that many suicides can be prevented because it's a matter of building up a support system - even an emergency one that can be found in something like The Samaritans - which you agree with, yeah? But knowing my own mental gymnastics and the similarity of such cognitive biases, saying "Don't commit suicide, it's selfish" merely adds to the void threatening to take them in. They already think that doing this would be an act of mercy to those around them. To add that just proves the point in their head that they are selfish and a bad person and therefore, everyone would be better off without them.

And the Romanian thing? That was due to me not fully reading/understanding what you said, I'm a twat. Apologies.

I get the idea of empowering those with mental illness but I also think it's dangerous to dismiss the idea that they might not be capable. You can only go so far before you have to realise that someone with a serious mental illness may not be capable of looking after themselves. I mean, lots of self-harmers hide their cuts, eating disorder sufferers lie constantly to carry on their self-destructive behaviours and that's only two examples.

Looking at the argument from a different side, what about the concept that asking someone to live and remain in that much pain is selfish? I'm not trying to condone suicide but I do think that selfishness is a moot point when someone is in such an excrutiating amount of pain.

I have never understood why people call suicide selfish. It's the thing that angers me the most when I hear people talking about suicide. Telling that to someone who is suicidal only makes them feel worse, guilty. I've been told that and it just made me think: 'What? You want me to think about you and how life would be for you when I can barely get my own thoughts together?'

I thought living is about enjoying, feeling and being free. When you feel horrible, in pain and feel suppressed by the world, then what's the use of living. Saying suicide is selfish is kind of like telling someone that they should live for everyone around them. Isn't that selfish of the people who say such things?

Suicide isn't easy. Everyone has instincts to live, how can doing the opposite be easy? You knowingly take your life, take away everything you have. That only happens when people see absolutely no other option, when they lose all faith and hope. They live in desperation and have no one to trust in. Why hang on to something that does you no good?

The world doesn't do me good when I get into a depressive state. We're supposed to get rid of things that do any good but as soon as taking one's life is mentioned, people immediately want to put the person into a room where they can't do anything to themselves and can't get out. 'For their own safety'. And they want to force the person to talk and swallow pills to set the chemistry in their brains straight. That's not what a suicidal person needs.

I know it's hard to deal with these feelings for both the suffering person and those surrounding them, but the first thing that comes to our minds is not always the right thing to do. I think we could find a better solution. I don't know how and I know there are a lot of places are there you can reach out to. But like I've read above and in the newspaper once, you don't always get the help you need, especially if you don't start overreacting just to get a simple reaction from someone.

It's hard to speak up about these feelings, it takes a lot of will power to give the slightest hint. And when people don't see that hint, it's very discouraging. And if they overreact about it, it's frightening and makes you feel guilty as well, for having such an impact on people. My parents both ended up crying and my mother, who usually talks a lot, was speechless, while my father, who usually isn't one to talk about feelings, told me a lot about his own emotions. My friends were completely shocked and just kept throwing in question after question.

As much as they might have read about depression, suicide, self-harm etc. they can never really understand and that's the worst part. It's hard to deal with something you don't understand. What's worse is that the suffering person doesn't understand themself. All in all, I guess you can never put it simply. Even in all I've said, there's so much more. And it's all connected in some way, which is way I went from selfishness to talking about suicide to someone.

I really hope that a good solution is found in the future, but if I'm honest, I don't have much belief.

personal experience: suicide sucks. I have tried three times once due to over medication problems and the others due to the fact i felt awful; unloved, worthless, depressed, trapped, i felt dead inside and i jst wanted the process to be done with. I have also lost someone i love to suicide and it made me feel it was my fault, and just awaful that i can't even describe. it left me feeling guilty that i couldnt help him.

Religiously: i think god would never turn you down if you died due to suicide because hes is all loving and that is what is serisouly needed in that person. Also if god is real then he was watching you struggle and sould realize that struggling like that really is living in hell.

euthanasia: i think should be used only when the paitent starts to suffer unrelentless pain, or when having been in a coma for a certain amout of time.

Politically: i don't think politics should be involved because its not preventable unless you catch warning signs or hear the person sate they want to kill themselves. Laws never really work, for example drugs are illegeal, but theres still to many people using drugs.

@ Cuts.Run.Deep...
In regards to euthanasia, do you believe the pain needs to be physical or can it be mental? If I had a terminal illness, I might be able to deal with the physical pain, but the emotional/mental pain might be too much.

@ for dru's sins

i do not believe it should go for mental because theres many ways a person can be relieved of it if their willing to try like lifestyle changes vitimins and eating wise

@ Cuts.Run.Deep...
I'm not talking about a mental disorder. I'm talking about the mental anguish that can come with being debilitated or being terminal.

(And for mental health, I would be more inclined to recommend therapy and medication.)

@ Cuts.Run.Deep...

Whilst I agree to a certain extent that emotional issues may have some alleviation with a good diet (LOL NOT THAT I BOTHER), it is not a given and it is certainly not a magic wand. Relief can come for some given the correct circumstances. But those with degenerative neurological disorders are on a one way path and there's not enough carrots in the world that will end that mental suffering.

Basically, what I am saying is that people are different and whilst I do believe that the vast majority of suicides are preventable with the right treatment for the individual (whether it's counselling or therapy or meditation...whatever works for that individual) you cannot say with any certainty that dietary changes will help any.

@ for dru's sins.

I'm not quit sure than i havent been in the situation so I wouldnt have a right to say yes or no because i don't know how that feels.

@ The Master.

actually i can they change chemicals in the brian just like medicine, they give you more engery therefore making you feel better physically which can help mentally. Also not just ditery changes will help. I just used that as an example because my sister has used that to help with her mental disorders and it really helps her. There are thousands of other ways that can help a person cope with a mental disorder such as jobs and clubs. therapy, and changing surroundings.

@ Cuts.Run.Deep...
I think it's important to note that not everyone can up and get/change a job, join a support group, get therapy, or up and move. I can't. I'm trying to change jobs, but no one will call back. There are no support groups in my area, but if there were I don't have a car. I don't have anyway to get therapy and I certainly don't have the means to relocate (except down the street to a cheaper apartment).

@ for dru's sins.
I had that problem to with therapy and group. but then i found one that a while away, and because i need this help i asked for a ride. You could always ask a friend or take a bus. Also, one group i went to a while back they provided transport to thoes who needed it. i know if theres a will theres a way. you just have to keep serching its taken me five years to find the help. Also, yes jobs are hard to find at this moment in time so instead you could do some volunteer work. and even down the street could help tremendusaly. it means new people in the building which can = to new relationships. also that building is a change of secenary! also short breaks to a parents or realitives for a week is a great way to unwind and destress. Just because it seems hopeless doesnt mean it actually is.

also if moneys a prob. for therapy alot of places will work with you on that one girl at my group got there on scholarship cus she was so sick. when i said i didnt have the money to pay they made phone calls to my insurance to make sure i could still come.

i wish you the best of luck with finding the help you need.

^ I agree with you that there is always help but I don't believe that all mental illness can be cured. Managed, yeah, but not cured. Personally, I have clinical depression. I have had it at least since I was seven, it's severe and reoccurring. I've been in and out of treatment since I was 8 and it always comes back. Yes, there are good times but also always bad. While diet, therapy, medication and lifestyle do help me manage it, nothing cures it.

Also, not everyone has insurance, good doctors or the like.

I find people's opinions on euthanasia in mental illness interesting. Do people here who think that euthanasia should be allowed for terminal physical illness think that severe mental illness could also warrant euthanasia or no? Why or why not?

Suicide has such an awful stigma to it. We're going to die. We're built to deal with deaths. If someone truly wants to end their life, then who am I to argue otherwise? Yeah, people might depend on them. Life goes on though. It always will. Who cares if Sally down the road tops herself? Her kids might be taken into care, and go through a lot of stress. But in comparison to just about everything else... no one cares. Harsh. Yeah. And the common thing to do is be sympathetic. I think people are way too sensitive. If someone wants help though, because they don't want to want to kill themselves, then that's all good. People are properly depressed, and need to be recognised for it.

My opinion is mainly focused on those who are ill, or old. No one should be refused the right to die with dignity. But Sally down the road? Well, that's her life... and so be it.

(Just my two cents. I never know when to join in on these debates. Cba to read through 70+ pages xD)

@ Cuts.Run.Deep...
I have a job, but it's part time and doesn't pay well. I do take the bus, but mass transit is shit in my city so to get to the places where I might be able to get help, I would be on the bus for three hours there and three hours back. It's not worth it to me.

I've tried getting help since I lost my insurance 4 years ago. I wish I were knocked up; it'd make shit a whole lot easier.