Obama and the 2012 Election

  • oldbook;

    oldbook; (100)

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    @ that dru will bleed.
    And I understand that, but I think we need more checks and balances on welfare. You can't deny that the system is more abused then it is used to be beneficial like you. I think it needs to be stricter. Either way, I don't see national healthcare as a good thing.
    December 2nd, 2012 at 08:28pm
  • wx12

    wx12 (10125)

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    witheverything;:
    You can't deny that the system is more abused then it is used to be beneficial like you.
    Yes you can, easily. When you actually look at the facts (like the majority of welfare recipients are children/elderly who could not work) and welfare fraud statistics (incredibly low), as opposed to just blindly believing poor-bashing, hate mongering conservative nonsense.
    witheverything;:
    I agree with this. This national health care is simply a way to get everyone to rely on the federal government when America was formulated on the concept of a person's work ethic. I don't think I should be paying for someone who sits on their ass all day so we both get the lowest common denominator of healthcare. Not to mention, a national healthcare will lower the standard of healthcare, as I've already stated. Let's put this into perspective: We are one of the only countries in the world without national healthcare and where does everyone go for major procedures? America! Why? Because with national health care, it takes an astronomically long time for people to get the help they need.
    I don't think you've read, or properly understood, what the Affordable Care Act actually does. It does not aim to put everyone on programs like Medicare/Medicaid, and instead creates competition in the private insurance market through a public option. By doing this, low and middle income people will be able to afford private insurance, so that they don't have to use federal or state insurance, or just not have any health care at all. When implemented, the Affordable Care Act should reduce the number of people on state insurance by making private sector insurance an option for everyone, not just the very wealthy.

    I don't know what you mean by lower the standards of health care. Right now, millions of Americans don't have access to preventative medicine, cannot go to the doctor when they're sick and cannot afford vital medication. In a country as wealth as America, I think that's as low as the standards could possibly get. By barring discrimination against pre-existing conditions, reducing prescription drug costs, allowing emergency care at any hospital and securing women's rights to make their own health care decision, the Affordable Care Act has brought our health standards up to par with the rest of the world.

    The fact that we're one of the only countries in the world without universal healthcare is a big red flag. We'd sooner let people die of treatable illnesses than come up with a better system. You're mistaking the quality of America's medical innovation for quality of a health care system. We may have some of the best medical procedures, doctors, nurses, etc. in the world, but what good is that when so many Americans cannot afford access in a failing system? Gold in a treasure chest is only worth something when you have a key to open the chest.
    witheverything;:
    Essentially, national healthcare is one step towards socialism. We're going to control what kind of care you get and how much, then how you get places, then how much you can make and finally, why don't we all just be 'equal' on everything. So even though you made $100,000 this year, we're taking away $30,000 to give to someone who only made $40,000 because that's 'equal' no matter how hard either worked.

    That's idiotic, socialism and Obama. In four years, you'll all be pissed that you're hard work is being given to people who simply don't care.
    America has many elements of socialism; we always have. Anything our tax money pays for is socialized- public schools and universities, scholarships and subsidized student loans, roads and infrastructure, our military, libraries, postal service, farm subsidies, many vaccines and health care procedures were developed by government research, unemployment benefits... the list goes on and on. No Americans have a problem driving on socialized roads, but we'd rather let people die than socialize medicine. What garbage. And the degree to which health care is socialized is so minute because the Affordable Care Act aims to provide insurance through private companies for the most part, not the government.

    And let's not be naive. As the system stands now, a lot of your money is spent on health care for the uninsured. When an uninsured person goes to the emergency room for something minor like strep throat or UTIs, you pay for it. When someone cannot get insurance because of a pre-existing condition, you pay for it. When someone can't buy asthma medicine for their kid, you pay for it. Medicine is already socialized in America, just very poorly and inefficiently. By changing the system to provide coverage for all people, we're preventing these costs from falling onto the government, and by providing access to preventative care, we're reducing the overall costs of health care.
    December 2nd, 2012 at 08:52pm
  • folie a dru.

    folie a dru. (1270)

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    @ witheverything;
    Like Kurtni said, I will definitely deny that the system is abused more than it is used for good. I have met lots of people who have been helped and no people who fuck with it, although I acknowledge some of them exist.

    Most people would rather get a job than cheat the welfare system because it pays better and it's easier.
    December 2nd, 2012 at 09:04pm
  • oldbook;

    oldbook; (100)

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    The biggest issue is that it isn't Constitutional. This is America and we live on our Constitutional rights! In fact, it's rather bothersome when people don't follow the Constitution; it is the oldest government document still in use. It was created by men whose IQs were estimated around 170-180. Obviously, they did something right. So why are Americans so quick to jump to something clearing unconstitutional. Obamacare is still under judicial review, last I checked, because of this.

    But it requires people to get private insurance or face a major tax. Does that not question the individual mandate that most of our founding fathers venerated? There is nothing mutual, which the individual mandate calls for, in the government forcing you into a contract binding you to a private insurance.

    Obamacare exceeds the cope of the Commerce Clause. The purpose of Congress’s power to regulate commerce among the states was to end interstate protectionist measures and establish a national free trade pact. The Constitution does not give Congress the power to create commerce in order to regulate it.

    Obamacare requires religious private institutions to provide services that violate their fate.

    The Obama Administration asserts that the financial penalty is a tax. However, this “tax” does not satisfy the three types of taxes – income, excise, or direct – listed as valid in the Constitution. The penalty is not assessed on income so it is not a valid income tax. The penalty is not assessed uniformly and is triggered by economic inactivity so it is not a valid excise tax. Finally, ObamaCare fails to apportion the tax among the states by population, and therefore is not a valid direct tax.

    ObamaCare will increase taxes and healthcare costs, destroy new jobs, add to the national debt, burden both small and large businesses with new regulations, and violate the founding principles of a republic expressly founded to secure the blessings of liberty.

    You can go on and on about this.

    And yes, I understand a lot of what we do is socialized, but we still live in a society based on Federalism. Our history is about expanding, prospering and growing with federalism. Why should we infringe federalism? Why should we become socialistic? Every society that embraced socialism, failed. There is no such thing as a 'Utopian society' where everyone is equal. The government is not responsible for providing everyone with a fair share, but rather a fair opportunity.

    America was established on the ability to move up with hard work and not as a dependent country where people expect to be given things for free. According to letters between Thomas Jefferson and John Adams after
    retirement, both agreed that we have equality as a species, but not in our moral virtue. Our moral virtue alone should establish what we receive because one must work for what you get. Americans should take their responsibility of living in a capitalistic society as a motive to critically think and be able to solve their own problems.
    December 2nd, 2012 at 09:49pm
  • folie a dru.

    folie a dru. (1270)

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    @ witheverything;
    I don't think the idea of everyone having access to healthcare is unconsitutional or against the principles' of the founding fathers. In fact, I think the exactly opposite.

    It's also important to note that the Founding Fathers wanted the consitution to eventually be rewritten. They didn't agree with everything that was in there and hoped we would come back and fix it later. So clinging to it like it's so important to be a Puritan from colonial days really makes no sense.

    We need to evolve.
    December 2nd, 2012 at 09:52pm
  • oldbook;

    oldbook; (100)

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    @ that dru will bleed.
    But Obamacare, in its entirety, is.
    December 2nd, 2012 at 09:54pm
  • The Master

    The Master (15)

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    @ witheverything;

    I'm on the NHS and you know what?

    Without it, I would be dead.

    It's not the best healthcare service in the world but it's still miles better than the American system. It makes sure that nobody goes without.
    December 2nd, 2012 at 09:56pm
  • folie a dru.

    folie a dru. (1270)

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    @ joan.
    And 45,000 Americans a year do die from lack of a healthcare system (well, lack of insurance). (Despite what Mitt Romney claimed.)
    December 2nd, 2012 at 10:00pm
  • oldbook;

    oldbook; (100)

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    @ that dru will bleed.

    @ joan.

    @ Kurtni
    It was nice debating, but I feel like whatever happens happens and we shall see. Anyway, we should start a forum about writer's block. My fingers are itching to write, but my brain is full of Spanish speeches and Right Triangles.
    December 2nd, 2012 at 10:30pm
  • wx12

    wx12 (10125)

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    @ witheverything;

    I forsee flaws in this system too (I also don't support the individual mandate), but I think it's miles better than what we have. I feel like rather than passing one gigantic bill, it would have been better to do things in steps with more debate and discussion, but it didn't happen that way and we can't change it.

    (We actually do have a thread for Writer's Block Very Happy)
    December 2nd, 2012 at 11:11pm
  • Daughter Monster

    Daughter Monster (150)

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    I don't agree with everything that EVERY politician has said, since the history of mankind. Everyone makes mistakes, everyone. You can't hold a president to a god-like standard, because that's not who or what he is. He isn't God, he's a human too. That being said, I'm glad Obama won and I hope that issues can be solved now that he is in office again, for a second term. Sure, he's not perfect but he's human. He's trying his best; just like I'm sure the presidents before him were doing all along. Why do we have to debate and be so hateful towards eachother? Why can't we agree to disagree, and get along? Both sides are so hostile towards eachother, but we're missing the point. None of us are perfect. We all have our beliefs and morals, and what we want in life, where we want to go, dreams and goals. We all have that. I'm not trying to hurt you, you're not trying to hurt me. We all want a better world, let's start by ACCEPTING and RESPECTING eachother. It has nothing to do with your politics or your religion ,and I don't care if you're gay or straight. You are human just like me, I am human just like you. Why can't that be enough? Why do we have to agree on everything to get along? It doesn't have to be that way. "be the change you want to see in the world". Maybe instead of relying on politicians to bring the change, we can do some of the work ourselves. By ACCEPTING eachother. America would be a better place to live if we could stop fighting. We could find a solution, if we would all work together. All this fighting, bashing, bullying, it's bullshit and it needs to stop. We all need to put our differences aside and work together. We all have it in us to do that, we just need to swallow our pride.
    December 20th, 2012 at 05:43pm
  • folie a dru.

    folie a dru. (1270)

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    @ Miss Vampire Is Dead
    You can't agree to disagree on everything. How would laws get passed?

    "Let's agree to disagree about homosexuals having rights." Then they will never have rights.

    "Let's agree to disagree about rapists having rights to their children." Women will continue to be treated like shit.

    Yeah, it doesn't work all the time.

    You can't agree to disagree when someone is doing something to hurt someone else.
    December 20th, 2012 at 06:16pm
  • Daughter Monster

    Daughter Monster (150)

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    @ the drupocalypse.

    I wasn't really talking about laws. I was talking about people themselves. You can't talk to people without starting a fight, and it's horrible. Either accept the other person's opinion or just don't talk, why do we all need to fight? =( I'm kind of a hippie, I just want everyone to love eachother.
    If I may get off topic a bit. People. Need. To. Chill. About. Gay. Rights. Thery're people too, just different. And that shouldn't be an issue. I used to be bi so people discriminating against 'homosexuals' really pisses me off. -.-
    December 21st, 2012 at 03:19am
  • folie a dru.

    folie a dru. (1270)

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    @ Miss Vampire Is Dead
    Quote
    People. Need. To. Chill. About. Gay. Rights. Thery're people too, just different. And that shouldn't be an issue. I used to be bi so people discriminating against 'homosexuals' really pisses me off. -.-
    This goes back to what I said. When things are wrong, we cannot agree to disagree. If someone simply said to me, 'well they don't deserve the same rights blah blah blah' I'm not going to agree to disagree.
    December 21st, 2012 at 04:51am
  • Daughter Monster

    Daughter Monster (150)

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    @ the drupocalypse.
    Well exactly. Everyone is imposing their beliefs on eachother. It's stupid. But yeah, when people tell me they think gays are 'perverts' and 'evil' and what not, they get more than a mouthful from me. It's just wrong that they're being held back from their rights that they deserve as human beings. It's as petty as not letting someone hang out with you because they're wearing a shirt you don't like. I mean come on. I guess we all never will get along. It's a nice notion to have, I guess. -.-
    December 21st, 2012 at 04:58am
  • folie a dru.

    folie a dru. (1270)

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    @ Miss Vampire Is Dead
    That's my point with the 'agree to disagree thing' though. We can't agree to disagree because we have to fight against what is wrong.
    December 21st, 2012 at 05:16am
  • wxyz

    wxyz (240)

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    Miss Vampire Is Dead:
    @ the drupocalypse.
    Well exactly. Everyone is imposing their beliefs on eachother.
    Maybe some beliefs should be imposed.
    December 22nd, 2012 at 11:42pm
  • ode to sleep

    ode to sleep (100)

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    Romney wasn't any better.
    May 31st, 2013 at 06:02am
  • folie a dru.

    folie a dru. (1270)

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    @ becalmandcarryon
    Romney supports discrimination against gay people, thinks that support systems for the poor are 'entitlement' programs, lied repeatedly on the campaign trail about decisions he had made, and apparently wouldn't have voted against the Equal Pay for Women Bill (Lilly Ledbetter Act) because it would have meant that gay women and trans* women deserved equal pay as well.

    He also insulted nearly 50% of the country, including military veterans because they don't make enough money to pay income tax.

    Yeah, I think that Romney wasn't better . . . he was a lot worse.
    May 31st, 2013 at 01:26pm
  • ode to sleep

    ode to sleep (100)

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    @ dru is ready.
    Of course he wasn't any better! Do you really want to increase taxes for the poor and leave the rich? Romney was, no sorry, IS the comic sans of the typography world.
    May 31st, 2013 at 10:09pm