Breast-Feeding in Public

  • Xsoteria

    Xsoteria (100)

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    @pravda.

    I'd agree with you in some specific circumstances, namely in that we should try and make someone who is uncomfortable due to reasons we ourselves are a part of, feel less so, especially if it doesn't require much effort on our side. But that is just grossly impractical when applied to actual events out in public. You can't possibly expect hundreds of random people who are going about their business, to have some sort of insight into your personal irrational fears or prejudice. I don't see how they would, unless you're obviously giving off certain signs or you're wearing an actual written sign. Or maybe try and tell each and everyone of them in the few seconds they pass you by.

    If you were say, in a room with several people, the option to communicate your discomfort or fear or anything of the sort, verbally or otherwise, would be much more realistic.

    I dislike the use of the word creepy, simply because it means pretty much nothing and everything. It's a ridiculously subjective word in the first place. But since we are using it, I suppose what I meant by it was an obviously unusual, rude or sociopathic (ie someone doesn't realise/care that his blatant stares are awkward and inappropriate) behavior. These are a bit more defined than simply creepy and I had them in mind back when I said creepy.
    October 2nd, 2012 at 01:38pm
  • charming.

    charming. (135)

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    Again, though, who is saying that they feel the "hundreds of random people going about their business" are being creepy - however objectively or subjectively you define that - at them, in any specific way? You seem to be resorting to increasingly broad/unlikely scenarios, and I'm (somewhat uncharitably) assuming it's because your first comments were unfair (in who doesn't have a right to feel uncomfortable and voice that discomfort) (supporting this is that you just conceded the point I was making in the majority of our disagreement, that a woman who feels a man in a small/restricted area is behaving in a creepy way has the right to ask him to please alter his behaviour, in a minor way, to allay her discomfort) - so it's as though now you're making statements as if I disagree, or would disagree with you, despite that they are so broad that no-one would disagree with them, e.g. "strangers do not have insight into your personal fears and prejudices" which is not even an opinion, it's a statement of reality.

    Although, on that point, though a little off-topic, I'd argue that a lot of men do not have insight into most of the fears that women hold, even where those fears are entirely rational and may be held by a vast majority of women. Not understanding something is no excuse for behaviour which threatens or harms others, even if it was the reason you acted in such a way. Oh, but I just noticed you said "irrational" fears. Well, that's again both needlessly specific (e.g. whatever percent of people hold whatever 'irrational' fears you are referring to) when we're talking about broad conduct, and super dismissive after all I've been saying about how women's fears and feelings regarding male attention are not irrational at all.
    October 2nd, 2012 at 03:24pm
  • Xsoteria

    Xsoteria (100)

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    My original statement had to do with breaking the idea that strangers must not look at or towards someone who is breasfeeding a baby.

    In order to demonstrate, I offered a few scenarios. I don't really see how it's extremely unlikely that hundreds of people looking while passing by is going to make a woman uncomfortable. In my previous posts I made it rather clear that I don't think there's anything wrong with someone asking people to respect their discomfort in a civilised way. So when the post I last responded to brought up that same idea, I didn't feel the need to answer/agree again.

    I'm not resorting to any broad scenarios, I'm merely replying to your posts which seem to be expanding the subject and trying to steer it back to where it was a page or two ago, where you apparently thought I was having a problem with women complaining or even speaking out against men who misbehave.

    Again, I have no idea what specific behavior you have in mind when you say that there are rational fears women harbor for men. Is it rational to fear a man who's been watching you feed your baby, and has been sticking around/been behaving awkwardly/ogling your chest or something like that? If so, then yes, that's a rational fear in my opinion. There is a reason why we fear people who behave awkwardly or with some detachment to general rule of conduct. We can't tell what their behavior or actions will be like because the rulebook we assume everyone follows, doesn't seem to apply to them.

    That's all perfectly fine, as I've been saying for a week now.

    By irrational fear I mean fear of men simply being there, around her and not choosing to completely ignore her presence. Men not behaving in any way unusual. And not just men, but people in general.

    It's not ok to fear random people on the street who have no apparent bone to pick with you, don't behave in any way unusual or threatening. It isn't a rational fear.

    And, before you say it again, I don't mean that we shouldn't sympathise with people who have irrational fear, or even take their side. I'm fully aware that they are the victims of their own mind, and as victims they need our help and sympathies. By "not ok", I mean that it isn't a healthy state of mind and that we should be considerate or helpful to them.

    I hope I've been specific enough.
    October 2nd, 2012 at 05:43pm
  • charming.

    charming. (135)

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    Xsoteria:
    Again, I have no idea what specific behavior you have in mind when you say that there are rational fears women harbor for men.
    well, this is probably the centre of our being unable to see eye to eye so I'm going to stop posting in the thread now.
    October 2nd, 2012 at 06:09pm
  • folie a dru.

    folie a dru. (1270)

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    @ Xsoteria
    "You can't possibly expect hundreds of random people who are going about their business, to have some sort of insight into your personal irrational fears or prejudice."

    Irrational fears or prejudice. Because the statistics support that women are never raped and they should just pretend it doesn't happen to prevent that.

    I can definitely expect hundreds of random people to have basic respect for women. Whether or not they do, I can expect that. I should be able to expect that. I shouldn't have to expect that people will suck and leer and make inappropriate comments.

    And that has nothing to do with irrational fears or prejudice. Irrational means there's no basis for it. Statistics show there is an extreme basis for it. One in three women. Every two minutes.
    October 2nd, 2012 at 06:37pm
  • kafka.

    kafka. (150)

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    @ Xsoteria

    It's perfectly rational to fear a man who's been glancing at your (semi)naked boobs. Sure, nobody's going to rape you in a very public place, but I've had men step into my personal space and touch me (e.g. grab my hand / shoulder / clothes and pull me towards them) in very public places not just without my allowing them to do so, but when I've specifically told them to back away / leave me alone - and it's, to varying degrees, really uncomfortable, frightening, tiring and annoying.
    October 2nd, 2012 at 06:52pm
  • Xsoteria

    Xsoteria (100)

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    @dru

    The statistic you mention is both wrong and missaplied to the thread.

    @kafka.

    So you think that if a man glances at your boobs when they are exposed, he is likely to at least grope you? Nice.

    At least men fear to rape in public places enough for women to be moderately safe outside. Maybe this is a new recommendation to breastfeeding women. To avoid being repeadately raped, and just groped instead, go and breastfeed outside.
    October 2nd, 2012 at 07:51pm
  • The Rumor

    The Rumor (365)

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    I think it's ridiculous to make the jump from a man glancing at a woman breast feeding to 'that man is going to rape me'.
    October 2nd, 2012 at 08:41pm
  • kafka.

    kafka. (150)

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    Xsoteria:
    @dru

    The statistic you mention is both wrong and missaplied to the thread.

    @kafka.

    So you think that if a man glances at your boobs when they are exposed, he is likely to at least grope you? Nice.

    At least men fear to rape in public places enough for women to be moderately safe outside. Maybe this is a new recommendation to breastfeeding women. To avoid being repeadately raped, and just groped instead, go and breastfeed outside.
    It's not as nice as the fact that what outrages you most about women being routinely groped in public is not that women suffer abuse frequently, but that they take measures to prevent being abused which sometimes become as 'extreme' as shouting. How much emotional stress do you incur from a random woman randomly screaming at you once in your life? How does it compare to being repeatedly touched by frightening strangers?

    (Btw, if anybody thinks I'm making this up and street sexual harassment can't be that bad - I envy your blissful ignorance, but a recent survey done in London showed that 43% of women aged 18-35 have experienced sexual harassment in public places in the last year.)
    October 2nd, 2012 at 09:58pm
  • Xsoteria

    Xsoteria (100)

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    kafka.:
    It's not as nice as the fact that what outrages you most about women being routinely groped in public is not that women suffer abuse frequently, but that they take measures to prevent being abused which sometimes become as 'extreme' as shouting.
    It's nice to see that there is a trend going on on mibba, that you don't really have to read the posts you're responding to. Apparently we're free to just sort of skim through and fill in the gaps as we please. I'd ask you to point out where I said any of that, or even suggested anything even remotely similar, but I'd kick myself first for sounding like a broken record. Maybe I'll just put it in my sig or something.
    kafka.:
    (Btw, if anybody thinks I'm making this up and street sexual harassment can't be that bad - I envy your blissful ignorance, but a recent survey done in London showed that 43% of women aged 18-35 have experienced sexual harassment in public places in the last year.)
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    - 42% of women aged 18-34 have experienced unwanted sexual attention of some kind over the past year
    - 21% of all women have experienced unwanted sexual attention
    - 4% of all women have experienced unwanted sexual touching
    That's quite a suggestive spin you placed on that research. 4% is still a lot, but far from the horror you suggest and widespread panic you seem to be wishing for.
    October 2nd, 2012 at 10:34pm
  • The Rumor

    The Rumor (365)

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    @ Xsoteria
    Sexual touching is only one part of sexual harassment.

    ***

    What I don't get, though, is what this has to do with breastfeeding? What are the statistics of breastfeeding women being sexually harassed, seriously? I mean the negative reactions I've heard of were all more focused on disgust than arousal.
    October 2nd, 2012 at 10:40pm
  • kafka.

    kafka. (150)

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    @ Xsoteria

    That is not what the article says.
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    The poll also found 31% of women aged 18 to 24 experienced unwanted sexual attention on public transport and 21% of 25- to 34-year-olds. Overall, 5% of the women surveyed had experienced unwanted sexual contact on public transport.
    That's the statistic just for public transport, although just a few paragraphs before that it says,
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    Schoolchildren as young as 12 were being targeted, she said, with previous research for the group revealing that one in three girls in UK schools had experienced unwanted sexual contact.
    October 2nd, 2012 at 10:47pm
  • Xsoteria

    Xsoteria (100)

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    @ Xsoteria
    Sexual touching is only one part of sexual harassment
    She was replying in context of my question whether or not she honestly believed that the odds are if you're breastfeeding in public, men are bound to grope you.
    October 4th, 2012 at 05:41pm
  • This.Useless.Heart.

    This.Useless.Heart. (115)

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    It should be a complete non-issue. Boobs feed babies. There's nothing offensive about that. Babies should be allowed to eat in public just like the rest of us.
    October 6th, 2012 at 03:15am
  • malouagger

    malouagger (100)

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    I had no idea it was like that in America. It's awful.
    Being from Denmark I am used to watch mothers breastfeed their children in public and I am fine with it. It is a natural thing.
    October 16th, 2012 at 11:01am
  • folie a dru.

    folie a dru. (1270)

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    An educator is California is suing the school she formerly worked for because she was told to "train her breasts" not to lactate during certain hours (among other bullshit). Article.
    November 17th, 2012 at 01:16am
  • Scotie_phantom

    Scotie_phantom (100)

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    if you don't want them to breast feed in public, then take down those pictures for victoria secret of women in their underpants
    December 3rd, 2012 at 12:34am
  • folie a dru.

    folie a dru. (1270)

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    @ Scotie_phantom
    ... regardless of what is advertised and how it is done, women should still be allowed to breastfeed in public.
    December 3rd, 2012 at 01:49am
  • Airi.

    Airi. (2240)

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    @ Scotie_phantom
    I don't really understand your comparison. How do either of those things relate to one another in that way? Victoria's Secret is in no way encouraging or making women breastfeed in public. If anything, the only thing a store like that is doing is encouraging the sexual way people look at breastfeeding because of their sort of sexual ads. I don't even know if I would consider one of their ads 'sexual' but it has been a while since I've seen an ad for them. I don't think that's a rightful comparison at all, considering one is usually meant to be sexual while the other one is a completely natural thing that babies need.

    I'm not really understanding your train of thought here, would you mind expanding on how those two things relate to each other?
    December 3rd, 2012 at 01:52am
  • Scotie_phantom

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    @ Airi.
    you still see their boobies.
    December 3rd, 2012 at 10:17pm