Dual Comment Swap Features

@ Kurtni
True, true.

I think clear guidelines of what makes a review are definitely necessary; I just think a higher word count would encourage people to take it seriously straight off. But really the reporting system needs to be fixed before we have something like this, people need to know they can and should report comments that don't meet the criteria, and there needs to be a way of crediting people back if they get a bad comment.

Kurtni:

What does work is strict monitoring. In the review thread, users who give bad reviews have their comments deleted. We need users to report bad comments, so that those users can be banned from the swap.

But "bad" comments are hard to tell. I mean, obviously report the ones that aren't following the rules, but what about the ones that barely meet the 200 character criteria and have vague sentences, or seem to just reword what a previous comment swapper said? Things like that irk me (and probably others too). The person who left it probably thinks it's a good (or good enough) comment, but people like me (and the others wanting a more review based comment swap) would think it's a bad comment, but I can't report it. Where would you draw the line?

I also agree with what battalions said about crediting the comment back, and making sure that people know that they can report bad comments.

Kurtni:

Additionally, in the review thread, you have to comment on five separate things that are not grammar or spelling related, which encourages users to comment on things like plot, characterization, dialog, word choice, etc. I think that kind of requirement will be more effective than requiring a certain number of words.

I can definitely see how that would work. Even saying that for the current comment swap system, but only having 3 things that aren't spelling or grammar or the layout, would be beneficial, I think.

darkfallenangel:

But "bad" comments are hard to tell. I mean, obviously report the ones that aren't following the rules, but what about the ones that barely meet the 200 character criteria and have vague sentences, or seem to just reword what a previous comment swapper said? Things like that irk me (and probably others too). The person who left it probably thinks it's a good (or good enough) comment, but people like me (and the others wanting a more review based comment swap) would think it's a bad comment, but I can't report it. Where would you draw the line?

I also agree with what battalions said about crediting the comment back, and making sure that people know that they can report bad comments.

I don't think it's hard at all. If someone leaves a vague comment that shows they didn't read the story, it's a bad comment. We draw the line based on if the comment is specifically about the story or generic and irrelevant. Generic, non-descriptive comments are not ok, and users get banned from using the swap for those comments.

I don't know what you mean by you cannot report the comment. All you need to do is message a story editor or an admin.

I think that the word limit of a higher count would make writers/readers give more criticism.

Since there are people that want this second feature, they probably would also easily be able to reach whatever amount without rambling about the layout or whatever.

And I've reported one horrible comment, and nothing happened. So...

@ Kurtni
I mean that just because someone said "This is for the comment swap! I think you have a unique plot, and developed the characters nicely. I didn't spot any grammar or spelling errors, and the layout was nice. It was really well written and I really liked it." and maybe picked out a name from the summary/chapter and chucked it in there, doesn't mean I can report it. I mean, there's still content, but it's so vague. That's why I think a review focused official comment swap would be great because people would be more specific.

I think that someone might only be able to say a generic comment like the one above, for whatever reason, but some of them are simply people not reading the story. It's hard to tell, so what if I reported a comment like that and the person actually did read the story but that was all they could think of to say, and then they got banned?

Some people don't mind those types of comments, so that's why I like the idea of having a separate one where they can get those ones, and then another for people who really want some feedback.

@ Average Lifesaver;;

I too reported a comment that was really inadequate, but it's still there on my story, and I'm pretty sure I haven't gotten another (proper) comment.

I think people who would select the "review" option instead of simple "comment" swap would easily get to the word/character limit. But that being said, I also like the idea of having a rule where you must comment on something like (at least) 3 things that aren't spelling, grammar or how pretty the layout is for the normal comment swap. That would be a great start to people getting some feedback on their writing.

But even with reporting comments, even though the person gets banned from the feature, the person receiving the bad comment doesn't get another comment in return and the bad comment still remains on that person's story page. I've quit using the swap, despite the fact that I need feedback, because a small percentage of the comments I've received have actually been feedback and having my pages cluttered with bogus comments and having to go through the trouble of reporting the majority of comments I've received isn't worth that small amount of actual feedback I get.

It's not fair that I have to give like, ten comments in order to receive one comment that's decent, despite that fact that I leave thoughtout comments that usually triple the character count. If we had an equivalent to the review thread, I would certainly prefer to use that. I would use the review thread if it didn't move so slowly

@ darkfallenangel
It doesn't matter if they read the story; if they leave a poor comment, you should report it. You can't benefit from the system (receiving comments) without putting something in.

From an administrative point, having two separate comment swaps would require twice the moderation, two separate site pages, two distinct sets of rules, and we'd have to hold users accountable for keeping the rules straight. I think that's too complicated. Comment swap is in the beta phase now, and the purpose of doing so is to think of ways to improve it.We don't want to make a new feature and leave the current comment swap with a bunch of issues.

The review thread moving slowly is exactly why I'm not sure this is a solid solution- how many users are willing to use something so strict? Not very many, so feedback would still be slow and sparse.

I think when a user is banned from the comment swap, the user who received the poor comment should be credited back for that comment (ie, put back in the system to receive another comment).

I mean, I'm not trying to say that two separate swaps is a great solution, but I do think that the rules for the swap should be made more clear. A two-hundred character min and a "real" comment are incredibly vague, especially since I'm sure that the majority of people leaving all the terrible comments aren't familiar with comment swaps from the thread/journals, so they don't really know what to do.

I do think that if people aren't able to meet a higher word min or stricter guidelines (like those in the review thread about having to comment on plot, characters, etc instead of just layouts and trivial things like fandom/het,slash,or femmeslash) that they shouldn't be benefitting from those that do leave actual feedback.

I like the idea of separating the swap into two - perhaps one for comments and one for critiques. The one for comments could sit at the 200 character count and the one for critiques would be around the 200 word mark. This would, at the least, give people an idea of what they're going for and what to expect. The comments swap would be for just small comments - a lot like what many people are getting now - and the critique would be for more indepth feedback.

While quantity =/= quality as far as word count goes, I think you ARE much more likely to get a more indepth comment if people are aiming for at least 200 words, rather than 200 characters. By separating the two, by giving people the option, I think you'll have a lot less of a mix up between people going into the swap because they want to give and receive serious in-depth feedback and people who go into the swap because they just want to up their comment count or they just want to give/receive a one-two sentence comment.

I know the website Scribophile does this - they have a comment and a critique option - and it really helps when people have choice of which kind of comment they'd like to give. Less people end up dissatisfied or feeling cheated.

And I think people would like going into a pool of stories and knowing that the other people involved are interested in the same quality of feedback as they are. Everyone knows what to expect and what to give.

Kurtni:

It doesn't matter if they read the story; if they leave a poor comment, you should report it. You can't benefit from the system (receiving comments) without putting something in.

Now that that is much clearer to me, I'll keep that in mind once I start using the comment swap again (once it's fixed).

Kurtni:

From an administrative point, having two separate comment swaps would require twice the moderation, two separate site pages, two distinct sets of rules, and we'd have to hold users accountable for keeping the rules straight. I think that's too complicated. Comment swap is in the beta phase now, and the purpose of doing so is to think of ways to improve it.We don't want to make a new feature and leave the current comment swap with a bunch of issues.

I disagree. I imagined it like just another check box kind of thing, like how at the moment we check whether or not we want original fiction, fan fiction, or true stories. I think the people using it now would simply get divided into two groups and it wouldn't be a huge deal. I know it's in the beta phase, and this is a way that I think it can be improved, and other people are posting positively towards this idea too. I wouldn't expect a whole new feature made and the other one abandoned at all.

Kurtni:

The review thread moving slowly is exactly why I'm not sure this is a solid solution- how many users are willing to use something so strict? Not very many, so feedback would still be slow and sparse.

I think that at the moment, most people are probably using the comment swap feature instead of the review thread, since the comment swap feature seems to be more reliable and fun. I also think that people would be willing to wait a little bit longer to get some proper feedback, but I also feel like a considerable amount of users would use it.

i saw sparks:

I mean, I'm not trying to say that two separate swaps is a great solution, but I do think that the rules for the swap should be made more clear. A two-hundred character min and a "real" comment are incredibly vague, especially since I'm sure that the majority of people leaving all the terrible comments aren't familiar with comment swaps from the thread/journals, so they don't really know what to do.

I do think that if people aren't able to meet a higher word min or stricter guidelines (like those in the review thread about having to comment on plot, characters, etc instead of just layouts and trivial things like fandom/het,slash,or femmeslash) that they shouldn't be benefitting from those that do leave actual feedback.

I definitely think the rules should be clearer too; it's very vague at the moment, and that's why I haven't reported some comments that I (from what Kurtni said just before) should have. I thought they could get away with what they had written, so I didn't bother.

That's also why I think there should be a review option for the comment swap, because some people are perfectly fine with receiving and writing comments that are short and sweet, and that's fine. I don't think we should prevent them from doing that, but I also think we shouldn't prevent other users from gaining better quality comments, if that's what they want.

Audrey T:

I like the idea of separating the swap into two - perhaps one for comments and one for critiques. The one for comments could sit at the 200 character count and the one for critiques would be around the 200 word mark. This would, at the least, give people an idea of what they're going for and what to expect. The comments swap would be for just small comments - a lot like what many people are getting now - and the critique would be for more indepth feedback.

While quantity =/= quality as far as word count goes, I think you ARE much more likely to get a more indepth comment if people are aiming for at least 200 words, rather than 200 characters. By separating the two, by giving people the option, I think you'll have a lot less of a mix up between people going into the swap because they want to give and receive serious in-depth feedback and people who go into the swap because they just want to up their comment count or they just want to give/receive a one-two sentence comment.

I know the website Scribophile does this - they have a comment and a critique option - and it really helps when people have choice of which kind of comment they'd like to give. Less people end up dissatisfied or feeling cheated.

And I think people would like going into a pool of stories and knowing that the other people involved are interested in the same quality of feedback as they are. Everyone knows what to expect and what to give.

I think that pretty much summarises what I'd like, and I think the 200 words is probably a reasonable goal to expect some decent feedback (for those who want it). I think a lot of people would benefit from having the two options and feel much better about the comment swap.

Again, I know it's just in the beta phase, but this could just be something to take into consideration when updating/improving it.

I don't think someone needs to raise it to 1000 words, but I think making it more than 200 characters (which I can piss out in a text message) would be wonderful. That's only requiring 80 more characters than a tweet and people are wondering why they're getting not-so-stellar comments. People want to do the bare minimum, so make the bare minimum a teensy bit higher.

I don't even think raising the character count is such a big deal, just make sure people know what constitutes as a comment and what doesn't because people will ramble on and on about the fact that they got the story for comment swap (duh) or about the fandom and count that nonsense towards their 200 characters. Rambling on about how much you love/hate someone's fandom and then tacking on "this is good!" isn't a proper comment.

I seriously had someone leave me a comment through the swap about how everyone else had left a detailed comment and they weren't going to because they didn't care...oh, and they threw in "BIG TIME RUSH!" That was the entire comment. No mention of my writing whatsoever Yeah, I reported it, but that doesn't get my comment back

On Figment, they have a Comment and a Review section and that could be what this features does. It makes it convenient for the people, like me, who like to leave lengthy, in-depth critiques and for others just poking their head in to say, "Hey, cool story, update soon!"

By making this second comment swap feature, you are eliminating some of the problems with the original: dissatisfied writers who want better feedback. And I'm sure there are more users willing to do some monitoring to alleviate some of the weight of having two comment swaps.

Also - I don't agree that a lot of people won't use it. Because of the number of users here, I'm sure there are just as many critics to the "commenters."

dru chases the wind.:

I don't think someone needs to raise it to 1000 words, but I think making it more than 200 characters (which I can piss out in a text message) would be wonderful. That's only requiring 80 more characters than a tweet and people are wondering why they're getting not-so-stellar comments. People want to do the bare minimum, so make the bare minimum a teensy bit higher.

I think 1000 words is a bit excessive... But I think raising it higher for everyone could cause some conflict with the people who are just fine with leaving small comments and receiving them. I obviously don't know that for certain, but it's just a thought. And that's why I think having an option to do either would be best, so you can choose what's more suited to you. I think I would personally use the smaller requirement for just getting some quick thoughts on the first chapter of a new story, and then later use the larger comment swap to get some better feedback on my writing once I've actually written a bit more.

@ i saw sparks

Yeah there definitely needs to be clearer guidelines, regardless of what happens in terms of character count.

Average Lifesaver;;:

By making this second comment swap feature, you are eliminating some of the problems with the original: dissatisfied writers who want better feedback. And I'm sure there are more users willing to do some monitoring to alleviate some of the weight of having two comment swaps.

I think there would be a few members who wouldn't mind monitoring the comments either. I don't know know who officially does it now, admin and story editors I assume? So maybe just a few more new story editors who could help to do it, or even have a few "Comment Moderators" or something, even if they helped out with checking poem and blog comments too.

@ darkfallenangel
Definitely. I wouldn't mind moderating, and I know there are other members capable and willing to do the job.

@ Average Lifesaver;;
Me too :)

I don't understand why we need the current 200 character bad feedback swap. We know most users are not reading stories, it's just a matter of increasimg numbers. Why should we have a feature to encourage crummy feedback? That reflects poorly on the integrity of Mibba.

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What if users had to "pay" points to use the swap, to encourage good participation?

@ Kurtni
I thought the point was that we got repaid with the comment itself. I'm going to pay points, why should I have to do something else? Why wouldn't I just get the comment for giving the points in the first place? I just don't see why someone who is doing something correctly should be required to pay for the opportunity to do something right.

Maybe people who leave inappropriate comments should get points docked?

@ dru chases the wind.
I was thinking about a point fine too. Naturally, we'd have to wait until the point system is more integrated, but I think that would be a good deterent.