What Is the Biggest Form of Sexism You've Encountered?

I don't know if I would define us as a "rape culture." But it does infuriate me that it's so much easier for someone, a man in particular, to joke about rape than it is for someone to report rape.

catinabottle:

I don't know if I would define us as a "rape culture."

With respect, that leads me to think you aren't clear on the definition of rape culture. Yes, some of the 'extremes' may not apply - but in a very pervasive and horrible way, much of our everyday experiences are actually coloured by it.

@pravda No...just because I say that doesn't mean I don't know what it means. I just consider Iran and places like that more of a rape culture. We have laws against rape, and rapists tend to be at the bottom of the informal social hierarchy in prisons...I don't think Americans consider rape NORMAL, per say.

catinabottle:

Considering rape "normal" and/or not prosecuting it, is not the definition of rape culture.

(Though I wasn't trying to say you didn't know what it meant; just that you might have been unclear.)
(Which, if that's how you are defining it, appears to have been an accurate inference?)

Edit: Although, taking into account how widespread rape and rape jokes and victim blaming and shaming and doubting are, and considering how few rapes are successfully prosecuted, I would be happy(?) to argue that even that definition could be said to apply to the US and "places like that."

@ pravda That's not what I was saying. I was referring to the link you posted, which DID define it that way.

But getting into this, I now remember why I used to ignore the thread section.

catinabottle:

The link has a conversational tone, and if you continue reading past the first couple of sentences, you see that it's a much broader definition. (And, like I said, even the narrow/'extreme' definition is, I think, somewhat applicable.)

I'm sorry you feel that way about the forums, the purpose of the discussion board is to discuss, which is what I was doing.

@ pravda I did read past the first couple of sentences.

I didn't feel you were discussing a topic so much as calling me ignorant about something when I merely stated an opinion about my own country.

catinabottle:

Since the USA (and many western countries; Australia included) contain many of the myriad of symptoms of rape culture, and you suggested the US was not a rape culture, I was offering you a contrary definition to whatever definition you were employing. I guess that does suggest 'ignorance' but certainly not in any aggressive or offensive or generally negative way. Most disagreements come down to differences of definition.

I don't know what you mean by "an opinion about my own country" because that seems to suggest that a) opinions cannot be disagreed with and/or b) US citizens are the only people who can comment on the US, both of which I would contest. Just because you may have personally not felt the effects (or not recognised them; one element is that attitudes are so widespread they become normalised, invisiblised) doesn't mean that the reality of rape culture is not adversely affecting the lives of millions of women. So if you consider your opinion informed, then I guess I disagree with it.

@pravda

You didn't tell me I had a "different definition." You told me I had an "unclear definition," which made it seem like you were telling me I had a wrong definition.

I meant "an opinion about my own country" because it's my option, and it's my country. I wasn't referring to the validity of other opinions. I was referring to the fact that my feelings about my own country would naturally be a little stronger than my feelings about another country.

And yes, I do know "the reality of rape culture adversely affects the lives of millions of women." I simply said I don't believe America is a rape culture. I didn't say anything ABOUT rape culture. I just said I don't think America is a rape culture.

@ pravda.

It's seems harsh to me that you're presenting the idea of rape culture as this particular thing, and going as far as to call someone else ignorant, when even feminist groups cannot definire the term uniformly or agree on what exactly it means or who it applies to (and certainly some random blog that relies on Wikipedia as a reference is not an authority on the subject). It's controversial, and disagreement does not mean someone is ignorant.

I think it's useless to talk about the entire culture of a country when no such uniformity exists (ie, a culture of violence, a culture of racism, etc.), and the attitude rape culture is discussed with minimizes, if not outright tries to hide, sexual abuse of males.

Rape is viewed differently in Texas than it is in New York City than it is in LA. Rape cases are also prosecuted differently without uniformity. Not everyone romanticizes male aggression (though, the idea that aggressive/pain inducing/non-vanilla consensual sex cannot exist without hurting women is a huge overstep, I think), not everyone blames rape victims, not everyone objectifies women, not all media is rooted in misogyny. Condemning an entire society as bad and anti-woman is not just wrong, but furthers the idea that this is some unchangeable truth to our lives we should just accept.

To talk about a general rape culture in the abstract is an utter waste of time, when what really matters are the specific nuts and bolts of society that oppress women not in some ideological, theoretical way, but in practice every day.

Kurtni:

It's seems harsh to me that you're presenting the idea of rape culture as this particular thing, and going as far as to call someone else ignorant, when even feminist groups cannot definire the term uniformly or agree on what exactly it means or who it applies to (and certainly some random blog that relies on Wikipedia as a reference is not an authority on the subject). It's controversial, and disagreement does not mean someone is ignorant.

I really think the ignorant thing is being taken too personally. Since I (clearly) disagree with her on the matter, my initial response was that she was ignorant about a (specialised) term; once she insisted this was not the case, I acknowledged that it became a difference of opinion. (Plenty of users in, for example, the evolution/creation thread use "theory of X" in the non-specialised - and thus inaccurate - way. I politely offered a definition I considered thorough, notwithstanding their initial use of Wikipedia.)

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I think it's useless to talk about the entire culture of a country when no such uniformity exists (ie, a culture of violence, a culture of racism, etc.), and the attitude rape culture is discussed with minimizes, if not outright tries to hide, sexual abuse of males.

Really, you don't think there's a culture of violence or racism in America? Also, I 100% disagree that the concept minimises or "outright tries to hide" abuse of men - firstly because I have literally never heard any woman who cared about violence against women support or mock male sexual abuse, secondly because sexual abuse in general is a part of rape culture, where being 'rough' is being sexy, where you can take a 'no' as a 'yes' because they were asking for it or had a glint in their eye, where the act of sex, generally, is seen as a dominating, violent act that's more about power than physical attraction - at the same time, 1 in 33 men being sexually assaulted and 1 in 5 or 6 (depending on your sources) women being sexually assaulted are massively different statistics and it's not an attempt to "minimise" the former by pointing out the absurd frequency of the latter (and discussing why this is the case and what can be done to turn it around.)

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Not everyone romanticizes male aggression, not everyone blames rape victims, not everyone objectifies women, not all media is rooted in misogyny. Condemning an entire society as bad and anti-woman is not just wrong, but furthers the idea that this is some unchangeable truth to our lives we should just accept.

I think society is [currently] bad and anti-women, but I don't think that's an innate way of being and I don't think it's unchangeable - unless people go around saying "Nope, that isn't happening," in which case of course nothing will change. Yes, not 'everyone' romanticises male aggression and those other things (especially not the people in this discussion making these points: females) but it genuinely surprises me that the extremely prevalent and deep-seated objectification of and misogyny towards women can be not just overlooked but flat out denied.

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catinabottle:

I didn't say anything ABOUT rape culture.

catinabottle:

I don't believe America is a rape culture.

catinabottle:

I don't think America is a rape culture.

catinabottle:

I just consider Iran and places like that more of a rape culture.

This is saying something about rape culture.

@ pravda No, that is stating that I don't think America is a rape culture. There IS a difference.

@ pravda Were I to have said something ABOUT rape culture, I would have tried to define it, given facts, evidence, ect. I basically gave a yes or no answer to whether I have a certain opinion and now you're telling me I'm wrong, and BADGERING me for it.

@ catinabottle
She isn't badgering you, this is a discussion thread where users reply constantly and debate. If you no longer wish to participate in the debate, you can stop replying, and no one will hold it against you.

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@ pravda

I think it would be best to simply stop calling people ignorant because it ruins the ambiance of a polite and respectful discussion, but that's all I'll say on the matter.

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I disagree with the idea that there is any value in discussing a soceity as a whole as being a culture of x. And I absolutely think it minimizes sexual abuse of males because it's focused around painting men in general/as a whole as aggressors, as violent, and as misogynists. Once again, it brings up the issue of discussing something with blanket statements and overreaching terms. You can't respect men as victims if you're crusading against them as the sole perpetrators. Why are you so against sexual fetishes? Enjoying rough sex doesn't mean you support rape or hate women. You seem to be unable to distinguish between consensual sex acts and nonconsensual. I think it's oppressive to women to tell them that consenting to rough sex somehow contributes to rape culture, like women need to be shamed anymore about their sexuality.

I'm assume you were talking about society generally in your last paragraph, because it would be an amazing twist of my words to conclue that thinking "rape culture" is a bad, useless term means I think sexual violence and abuse should be denied or overlooked.

catinabottle:

@pravda No...just because I say that doesn't mean I don't know what it means. I just consider Iran and places like that more of a rape culture. We have laws against rape, and rapists tend to be at the bottom of the informal social hierarchy in prisons...I don't think Americans consider rape NORMAL, per say.

Why would you think that in Iran 'and places like that', there are no laws against rape and people there consider it to be 'normal'?

@ catinabottle
Every two minutes a woman in America is raped. So in one minute a woman in American will not be raped and in one minute a woman in American will. That actually sounds like women are getting raped 50% of the time in this country, which means that not only is not "not normal", it so "normal" [as in normally occurring] that it occurs as often as rape doesn't occur.

dru chases the wind.:

That actually sounds like women are getting raped 50% of the time in this country, which means that not only is not "not normal", it so "normal" [as in normally occurring] that it occurs as often as rape doesn't occur.

I didn't mean "normal" as in it doesn't happen often. Believe me, I know it happens often. I meant it isn't considered acceptable.

@ catinabottle
I would argue about that. The majority of rapists in America never spend a day in jail. We had to try to change the definition of rape in one state because if a woman changed her mind in the middle of intercourse, it didn't matter, she couldn't legally make him stop and it wasn't legally rape. Until the 70s, a man could legally rape his wife because she was "his" wife. A lot of people think women are "asking for it" if they wear something that isn't a nun's habit when they get raped.

I would say it's acceptable, just maybe not in the honor rape sort of way.

@ dru chases the wind
Based on national outrage over many rape cases, I have to say I don't think it is.
And it was until the 70s that a man could rape his wife. It's 2012 now, and the attitude has changed quite a bit since then.

@ catinabottle
40 years in the history of the world isn't that much time. Some men still don't think you can rape your wife.

Many rape cases? How many are they outrage over? I feel like rape cases make national news 1-3 times a year, definitely not in relation to the crime as it occurs.

So people get outraged of 3 rapes a year in about 300,000. Even if they get outraged about 100 rapes a year, that's still nothing.

In Texas, a few years ago, a 12 year old was gang raped by men from 15 to 30 who said she was asking for it because of the way she was dressed. The mother who helped her daughter file charges, had to move out of town with her daughter because of the threats they were getting for 'ruining lives' of her rapists.

It's quite common for rape victims to be told their ruining someone's life, especially when it's your stereotypical "good guy".