"Everyone is Created in God's Image"

pravda.:

as dreamers do.:

@Unicorn Jesus
Adam, being typically human, chose the WRONG choice.

Does this mean God designed us to fail?

I am wondering the same thing.

as dreamers do.:

Oh, and God doesn't "send" people to Hell. God gave us a thing called free will.

If God is responsible for both the creation of Hell and the creation of the criteria by which he judges our souls (i.e. whether we go to Heaven or Hell), then ultimately he is responsible for us going there.

@ Alex; periphery.
I disagree. Maybe just by the way you worded it. It's like if a parent sets up rules for their child and they break them so they get grounded. It's not the parent's fault for making the rules, but the child's fault for not obeying them.

(Since I don't believe God 'sends people to Hell', obviously I have a different perspective in general, but I don't think punishing someone for not following pre-determined rules is the fault of the rule-creator. If it was, like I said, your parents would be the ones at fault for grounding you for breaking curfew, even though you knew you had to be home at 11.)

@ dru will wait.
I suppose I was seeing Hell as an unjust punishment, rather than something perfectly acceptable like a grounding. Because I think the idea of ending up in Hell eternally is pretty unjust when it's a judgement for finite actions, I think 'blame' so to speak lands with whoever created that place and then dictated how one gets there/avoids going there.

@ Alex; periphery.
I still think that's the same thing as grounding, just obviously on a larger scale. After all, it's God, not a parent. But I don't believe in a God that does that. I believe that if people aren't ready to go on because of the condition of their souls, that they simply become reincarnated and go through it again until they get it right. I believe that Earth is Hell. So when we go to Hell, we just come back to try again. It's not finite. It is based on you. (I also don't believe in a god that punishes for petty shit, but looks at the overall condition of your soul as a person, regardless of things like religion or sexual orientation. I also think God is just a metaphor for something else that we personalize as God as humans because it's easier to make God look like you. 99.9% of religions are the same.)

Alex; periphery.:

@ dru will wait.
I suppose I was seeing Hell as an unjust punishment, rather than something perfectly acceptable like a grounding. Because I think the idea of ending up in Hell eternally is pretty unjust when it's a judgement for finite actions, I think 'blame' so to speak lands with whoever created that place and then dictated how one gets there/avoids going there.

Ah, but what makes human beings inherently deserving of the infinite happiness of Heaven? Since if eternal punishment is unjust that means what would be just would be to receive eternal reward - or would it be most just to go to Purgatory and spend some time atoning for our wrongs? How exactly would that be possible? If you cause somebody pain, that pain is eternal - not in the sense that people can't heal from pain, but in the sense that the pain you've caused has permanently marked that person's life (in one way or another) and its [the pain's] existence cannot be erased by your apologizing or atoning for it in any way.

@ kafka.

But pain can be creative.

I'm not saying that bullying or shit like that is suddenly justified but I am reminded of Proust who pretty much implied that the years he spent suffering were the best of his life since they made him rather than the years he spent in joy.

I don't know.

I've seen a lot of pain and it's nearly killed me more times than I can count. but I don't think I would trade it for an easy life.

Sometimes pain is unavoidable and whilst it would be nice if there was no pain, it ain't gonna happen any day soon with the human race.

I dunno if I made any sens.e

Whoa whoa, I actually meant the "typically human" thing to be a humorous jibe at how stupid we can be sometimes... ._. But anyways, that's a really interesting question. We could probably spend weeks on here speculating/debating God's purpose, but because that's not something I really want to get into, the short answer is I don't know because I'm not God. XD We can all have our own personal beliefs about this, but speaking from a strictly Biblical/theological standpoint, there's no way of knowing for certain. The only thing I can say is the Bible says God is just and God is love.

But of course, not everyone believes the Bible. And again, that's not an argument I want to get into, so yeah... XD IMO though, it's pointless to discuss truth in Christian theology without using the Bible as the basis of that truth. But I mean, I know this isn't a formal debate and we're just expressing our own beliefs, so I'm just saying. :)

I'm an atheist, but not one of the ones who asks for proof of God.

Im open to debate on this, but, I simply think that the 'Higher Power' theory is a pill too big to swallow, and that its out of our grasp.

If dru will wait.'s theory about how we get reincarnated for not doing things right, then how is it that the population today is over 10 times bigger than when the idea of a single 'God' originated? I understand that he/she could 'craft' (for the lack of a better term) more humans into existence, if he/she wanted to. But with how many humans commit sins, and don't follow the Ten Commandments, don't you think that after all these centuries he/she would have given up?

It just confuses me, I mean, people who've 'found God' and have turned their lives around did it on their own—not with the lord's help. From my perspective, religion is just one big placebo of faith; it helps you get through life and hope that one day you'll be rewarded for you hard work.

I have worked hard my whole life, I hardly ever feel envy and I treat everyone how they treat me, but now I find that I can die any day now, and no one seems to care. My friend is going seriously mentally insane and my family is falling apart, if God is real, then how would he/she expect me to 'get it right'? I just think that under these circumstances, how would he expect anyone to do so?

@ Unicorn Jesus
I do think souls are continuously born, not that there is a set amount of souls. There are more people 'cause they keep having sex and the babies get souls.

I also don't really believe the basis that we are good people because of what we abstain from and the rules we follow. I only believe God judges based on good/bad souls. So the Ten Commandments wouldn't matter. Most of that is just respectful common sense. Be respectful, don't cheat, don't kill people, don't lie. That's human morality, not religious morality.

dru will wait.:

@ Unicorn Jesus
I do think souls are continuously born, not that there is a set amount of souls. There are more people 'cause they keep having sex and the babies get souls.

I also don't really believe the basis that we are good people because of what we abstain from and the rules we follow. I only believe God judges based on good/bad souls. So the Ten Commandments wouldn't matter. Most of that is just respectful common sense. Be respectful, don't cheat, don't kill people, don't lie. That's human morality, not religious morality.

Do you control what kind of soul you have? What makes a good soul if not leading a moral life? If babies just get souls when they're born, without any conscious choice, I don't think it's fair for God to judge them based on what they randomly ended up with. If you have a bad soul, and you're reincarnated with the same bad soul, wouldn't you just perpetually be 'sent to hell'? That seems like some kind of exceptionally cruel predestination.

@ Kurtni
No, not like all souls are bad or good. I think, like, if you're born you get a clean slate and then the actions of your life reflect upon your soul. But, like, I think God sees grays. It isn't 'you stole something once and didn't go to church so you're a bad person' it's 'you tried to help people and were generally good to your family, so you're a good person'. Or 'you constantly treated people badly and were not kind to those are you, you never tried to change or be kind so you need some more time to learn those lessons, back to Earth with you'.

It's about trying again. The soul isn't necessarily the part that is bad or good, it's just the reflection of bad and good. When you start over, you get a clean slate, I think.

@ dru will wait.
But if you're reincarnated with the same soul over and over again, wouldn't that mean that you're still the same person, just in a different body?

@ Unicorn Jesus
Different experience, different life, different parents, no awareness that you ever existed before... no, in short form.

I also think you can be reincarnated as something other than human, something on another dimension, or something that isn't even really a being.

@ dru will wait.
What does all that have to do with your soul, though?

I know that the way you're raised effects/affects your behavior but you would still be the same person inside, right?

@ Unicorn Jesus
No, I don't think so. I think different circumstances and where you live and all sorts of things effect who you are as a person. A soul is just energy that connects you with the universe and gives you life. It makes you human, but it isn't like ... a blueprint of who you are. It's more like a giant battery with really powerful wifi that taps into everything.

@ dru will wait.
Is it wrong that I laughed about the real powerful wifi?

Any who, my question was answered a while ago, but this form isn't really about my initial question anymore.

I have so many questions, but I don't think anyone has an answer.

@ Unicorn Jesus
I think answers are generally subjective. At least, in this area.

@ joan.

I wasn't trying to suggest that the lives / experiences of people who've been in pain are not valuable - meaningful, creative, etc - in whichever way you decide to measure value. Defining sin as causing pain to another person isn't even a good way to define sin - I was just trying to simply the idea that sins are not finite actions - like any other actions / events in our lives they have a permanent impact on us and those around us.

kafka.:

Ah, but what makes human beings inherently deserving of the infinite happiness of Heaven? Since if eternal punishment is unjust that means what would be just would be to receive eternal reward.

No, not necessarily. My statement extends to infinite judgment in general; it doesn't sit right with me whether it's reward or punishment.

Quote

If you cause somebody pain, that pain is eternal - not in the sense that people can't heal from pain, but in the sense that the pain you've caused has permanently marked that person's life (in one way or another) and its [the pain's] existence cannot be erased by your apologizing or atoning for it in any way.

I suppose that depends on what significance one gives the past. Many would argue that once someone has healed from some form of pain, and it no longer hinders them, then its existence has indeed been erased. Not in all circumstances, of course. But I wouldn't say that every single form of pain, no matter how momentary, irreversibly imprints itself on people's lives. But even if it did, I'd still fail to see how an eternity of punishment is in any way just.