Minimum Wage

@ Kurtni
Seattle? I know they were working on it.

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In places with a higher cost of living, $15 is probably fair. I think in my area a $10-12 minimum wage would be fair.

And I truly wish companies were required to give you a set raise after a set amount of a time, (50 cents every six months, a dollar a year). My company has given me a whopping 40 cents in raises in the two years I've broken my back for them. (I wish I knew how to slack at my job, but it's just not in my nature.)

Seatac is a suburb of Seattle, thought Seattle's mayor has vowed to pass the exact same legislation this year.

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I think its one of the least thought out and poorly executed laws I have ever seen. This law makes no difference between companies like Walmart and small businesses with 4 employees. In addition to raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour (immediately, not phased over time), the law also says...

+You cannot reduce an employees hours if they've worked with you for a month and worked at least 30 hours. Doesn't matter if your business is seasonal or weather dependent. Even if you're not making money, you owe the same labor expenses. Doesn't matter if the employee is shitty and has been slacking off, or if another employee has been excelling and deserves more hours.

+ Any new hours or positions have to be offered to part time employees before anyone new can be hired (forcing you to have a full time staff and pay thousands of dollars in additional benefits per employee)

+In addition to $15 an hour, they have to provide paid sick leave and insurance as well for part-time employees

+ Severance pay and unused sick leave pay. The punk I hired who stole $50 out of the register? He's going to make another $100 bucks before he's officially terminated.

+They cannot raise their prices to compensate for the doubled cost of labor because of a street pricing clause.

I also think everyone in Seattle will suddenly find themselves making minimum wage again. If I have to pay the mediocre employee who is late all the time $15 an hour, I can no longer afford to pay my good employees more than minimum wage.

I just got back from my franchisee meeting, and our franchisee based in Seattle unfortunately thinks he won't be able to stay open if this same legislation passes in Seattle. When you consider insurance, paid leave, severance pay, inability to change prices, etc. this is not a $15 an hour minimum wage, its $20-$25. Our expenses (and just about any franchisee's expenses) break down like this

40% operating costs (rent, electric bill, water bill, repairs, etc.)
20% labor
20% product
10% franchisee and royalty fees
10% net profit

If you double labor costs, profits go away completely, and you're actually losing 10% of what you make every year. My company happens to sell a really expensive product, other companies may not have such high costs there, but they still won't be making jack shit.

I just think of the young workers I hire and give a chance to have a first job... I'd have to pay them severance when they decide to skip work for a week to go on a road trip? I'd have to pay them for a "sick day" when they were too hung over to come in? I don't think that government should be able to regulate my shop out of business like that.

Minimum wage shouldn't be a living wage. You should not be able to support a family of 4 on minimum wage. Minimum wage is for entry level, low skill jobs. High schoolers do not deserve $15 an hour for their first job. College students with no job skills have not earned $15 an hour. If literally anyone else in the world can be trained to do your job in a few days, its not worth $15 an hour. I know when I first started, I certainly didn't deserve $15 an hour for scooping ice cream, that's insane. And I realize that there are adults working minimum wage jobs because of poor life circumstances, but its not my business's personal responsibility to subsidize your income. The answer to that problem is not to keep raising minimum wage, but to raise people out of minimum wage jobs through education and skill development.

And I think guaranteed raises are a bad idea as well. Why would anyone work hard or have any initiative if they know they'll get a raise whether they're a great employee or mediocre?

@ Kurtni
Except not all entry level jobs are low skill shitty jobs. Mine is billed an entry level and I do graphic design work and print work that is NOT entry level, but is billed as entry-level.

Maybe because a twenty five/fifty cent raise isn't that much and you can still get fired?

I don't make minimum wage, but I started at a whopping seventy-five cents above minimum wage and I can't afford to live.

I also can't afford to get another job.

So I'm just fucked.

And so is everyone else like me.

dru is beautiful.:

@ Kurtni
Except not all entry level jobs are low skill shitty jobs. Mine is billed an entry level and I do graphic design work and print work that is NOT entry level, but is billed as entry-level.

Maybe because a twenty five/fifty cent raise isn't that much and you can still get fired?

I don't make minimum wage, but I started at a whopping seventy-five cents above minimum wage and I can't afford to live.

I also can't afford to get another job.

So I'm just fucked.

And so is everyone else like me.

I said low skill and entry level. Its the combination of the two that minimum wage is meant for. There are jobs that are low skill, but require experience, and entry level jobs that are high skill (requiring a degree or technical training). Those jobs don't pay minimum wage.

I think a raise is something you earn when you go above and beyond, not when you just do the minimum job requirements. There are employees I wouldn't fire, but I certainly wouldn't give them a raise either, and I don't think the government should ever force me to give pay incentives irrespective of performance. No one is inherently entitled to raises.

It sounds like you have an issue with your particular business not paying fair wages, but that doesn't mean everyone working minimum wage jobs is underpaid or doing work more valuable than their pay indicates. Increasing minimum wages across the board because corporations abuse it just fucks over small businesses.

Some states have proposed laws enacting separate minimum wages for companies with large numbers of employees, or different full time/ part time minimum wages, which makes more sense than just $15 an hour for anyone, any job, any skill/experience level. But, that still keeps people in crappy minimum wage jobs instead of investing in people to get them decent jobs that don't pay the bare minimum with no benefits.

@ Kurtni
The other jobs I worked at I wasn't supporting myself so they didn't affect me the same way, but if I were working those jobs now I would still have major issues, most likely equivalent to mine.

I have never worked a job where they give you a raise because you do a good job (unless it's your annual review). I think that if you stay with a company for an extended period of time, you are displaying company loyalty and it is an asset to the company. It also means your turnover is lower. I think that should be rewarded.

I think $15 seems like a lot, but in places where it costs $1500 to get a one bedroom apartment, I see it being necessary.

I think a $10 minimum wage is perfectly acceptable, and logical.

A lot of people don't realize that people will only raise the prices of everyday necessities if they raise the minimum wage. Raise the minimum wage to fifteen dollars an hour and we'll slowly see steadily climbing prices on all types of things. Raising minimum wage doesn't mean that life quality will get better, it means that you're only raising all numbers.
By raising minimum wage, we're hurting small businesses. Not enough people shop at these smaller establishments for them to be able to kick up their workers ten dollars an hour to fifteen. It's going to cause people to get laid off or have their hours cut dramatically until they quit. They're already doing it here in Arizona. I'm not saying that raising minimum wage wasn't a good idea, but it just won't work over long periods of time, and it just plain sucks that nothing will solve this. It's a matter of the value of our American dollar. Twenty, twenty five years ago my parents were buying hamburgers for fifty cents and gas prices were less than half they are now, if not even less, because the value of our dollar was higher.

@ HouseOfWolves;
I'm just going to hit you with some numbers. This is a chart of historical minimum wages. This is an inflation calculator.

Let's just use the year 1974 (random year chosen), where minimum wage was $2.00 an hour and gas (according to google) was $.55 a gallon.

Taking account into inflation, that puts minimum wage at $9.65, and gas at $2.65. Also, arguably, gas prices have more to do with lobbying, wars and various other things than it does with minimum wage. My point is that it's very easy to look at previous numbers without taking them into context and go, "Phew, we're doing super badly." Fact of the matter is that we haven't had a raise in minimum wage in years, and our minimum wage is lower than it has been in the past.

HouseOfWolves;:

A lot of people don't realize that people will only raise the prices of everyday necessities if they raise the minimum wage. Raise the minimum wage to fifteen dollars an hour and we'll slowly see steadily climbing prices on all types of things. Raising minimum wage doesn't mean that life quality will get better, it means that you're only raising all numbers.
By raising minimum wage, we're hurting small businesses. Not enough people shop at these smaller establishments for them to be able to kick up their workers ten dollars an hour to fifteen. It's going to cause people to get laid off or have their hours cut dramatically until they quit. They're already doing it here in Arizona. I'm not saying that raising minimum wage wasn't a good idea, but it just won't work over long periods of time, and it just plain sucks that nothing will solve this. It's a matter of the value of our American dollar. Twenty, twenty five years ago my parents were buying hamburgers for fifty cents and gas prices were less than half they are now, if not even less, because the value of our dollar was higher.

I agree.

Also, I completely disagree with people that say that minimum wage should match the cost of living. Typically, minimum wage jobs are fast food or like grocery baggers right? Jobs teenagers should have. If you didn't finish school and can't find anything else, that's kind of your fault and I don't think that minimum wage should go up to like $15 because people who don't want to do anything want to bitch that they're not getting enough. Also, it's ridiculous to raise it that high when college graduates are lucky to start out with sort of pay.

Minimum wage where I live is $7.25 an hour. I think if they raised it up to maybe $8, that'd be okay. But you can't go up super high. It's going to destroy small businesses and like HouseOfWolves said, raise prices on everything else.

@ CallusedSilk
Though I agree gas has nothing to do with minimum wage, that's only one example. You're not taking into consideration inflation of house, which seems to be on a rollarcoaster at all times, cost of food, water, electricity (which was just raised by seven percent in my city), and simple things to improve the quality of your life. If gas has nothing to do with inflation, why are we using it as an example? Raising min. wage is a no brainer-we need to do it, but raising it by more than five dollar in most areas is extreme.
@Cola frank.
Thank you. I don't understand why people don't realize this is simple economics. I agree minimum wage should be raised, but fifteen dollars an hour is a huge jump. Another thing is if a kid is working flipping burgers at fifteen dollars an hour, it doesn't inspire him or her to do better. Though we do obviously need people to do the shitty work no one wants to do, we shouldn't inspire them to want to do it. That's why raising min. wage by the bit that you described would help aid those doing the things no one wants, but still help them inspire to do better. Who's going to want the stress of being doctor if they can make easy money cleaning bathrooms?

Sorry for any grammatical errors, replying on my phone is a nightmare!

cola frank.:

Also, I completely disagree with people that say that minimum wage should match the cost of living. Typically, minimum wage jobs are fast food or like grocery baggers right? Jobs teenagers should have. If you didn't finish school and can't find anything else, that's kind of your fault and I don't think that minimum wage should go up to like $15 because people who don't want to do anything want to bitch that they're not getting enough. Also, it's ridiculous to raise it that high when college graduates are lucky to start out with sort of pay.

This is actually not true. The idea that minimum wage jobs should only be for teenagers and are work for lazy people if they're not teenagers is not just propaganda and untrue, it is also slightly offensive. It truly bothers me when people perpetuate these sort of harmful ideas. As a minimum wage worker, I can assure anyone that minimum wage jobs are not easy work and many of them aren't for the lazy. Minimum wage jobs do have standards as well, just as any job does, and if you're lazy then you're honestly not going to have a job for very long. No employer is going to put up with that and minimum wage jobs are no exception to that.

I can use myself as an example here. I work two jobs, one at a warehouse and one helping my parents at a local motel. Both jobs pay me minimum wage and yet neither one is easy in the slightest. Granted, there are many motels/hotels that pay above minimum wage but these are solely the large chains, local motels don't usually pay above minimum wage. Yes, I have not finished school but that is not because I don't want to. I share the same problems many Americans these days do... We cannot afford college, but that's a different subject entirely. The point is, not everyone hasn't finished school because they're lazy. It's just that not everyone has the privilege of higher education. I want to go to school but I can't.

To be brutally honest, most people would not be able to physically or mentally handle either one of the jobs I have. Working at a warehouse requires a lot of physical labor. Sure, there are days when we practically do nothing all day but there are also days where our supervisors work us from start to finish without a second of relief (except for the mandated break of course) and this includes a lot of heavy lifting for able-bodied workers such as myself. A job at a motel is an emotionally trying job; it's not one someone can work unless they've got a lot of patience and some thick skin. Motel workers are usually treated the worst out of any employee by both our customers and our bosses. Speaking for my own country, the average American could probably not emotionally and mentally handle the work of a hotel worker, either front desk or housekeeping, and yet we're routinely told by people that our jobs are "easy".

Even jobs like fast food aren't easy. It's not exactly easy trying to fulfill multiple orders at once while standing over a hot stove in a restaurant where many of the kitchens don't have AC. And even if they do, it's pretty useless because of the heat of the equipment. If you're the cashier then it gets worse when you have to listen to customers scream at you because the cooks made a small mistake.

There are some people abusing the system, but is that a real reason to punish the countless people who are trying to make their lives better? People trying to make their lives better vastly outweighs the people working minimum wage jobs to take advantage of them. Minimum wage jobs are no longer simply for teenagers. I'm not sure how it is where you live but here in California, many college students work minimum wage jobs because they have no choice. Most businesses around here want experience and/or degrees... It's extremely hard for a young adult to break into our workforce because even so-called "entry level" jobs want years worth of experience. How else are college students supposed to live while they try for their degree? If businesses want experience and/or degrees then college students have no choice but to work minimum wage and try to survive. There is also immigrants (legal ones). Many people come to this country and have no choice but to begin working for minimum wage, especially if they come from a country that is much poorer than the U.S. They're desperately trying to make their lives better but many struggle and can't because minimum wage is no longer an opportunity to make your life better if you come from poverty.

Minimum wage should be a living wage because everyone deserves to live. A "living wage" means just that: living. The bare basics of living such as rent, food, and utilities. Minimum wage workers aren't asking for anything more than to be given a living wage so they can actually live and maybe have a chance to improve their lives. If we can't live then we can't improve our lives. I do disagree with a federal raise of minimum wage to $15 an hour since many places, that is not a living wage. In San Francisco where I live near, $15 an hour is the cost of living (to afford rent, utilities, and food) but our minimum wage is only $10.25 an hour (as a side note, I do not work in S.F and rather in a suburb where the minimum wage is $8 an hour). Other cities, it is cheaper to live and their minimum wages should reflect the cost of living. A federal mandate raising it to $15 an hour would be bad, but a federal mandate requiring minimum wage to be a living wage for the area would be the right thing to do.

I admit that I don't know a lot about economics but I just can't see why someone would disagree with giving people the basics of living.

@ HouseOfWolves;
Housing costs being on a roller coaster once again have more to do with crooked corporations influencing the housing bubble than they do with minimum wage, which is why I didn't bring that up. Cost of food is also mostly influenced by what receives government subsidies (we highly subsidize corn, for instance, but not most other vegetables) rather than minimum wage. I only brought up minimum wage because you introduced it into the conversation along with the price of a burger.

HouseOfWolves;:

Twenty, twenty five years ago my parents were buying hamburgers for fifty cents and gas prices were less than half they are now, if not even less, because the value of our dollar was higher.

So was I supposed to ignore how you were inaccurate about gas prices? My point, although I see now I didn't make it clearly enough, was that gas wasn't half what it is now twenty, twenty five years ago, and it still wasn't because of minimum wage being lower (minimum wage was higher back then). Water and electricity also have nothing to do with the minimum wage and more to do with regulations and supply/demand. It'd also just be helpful with electricity if we switched to wind and solar powered to cut down on costs. You keep bringing in things that are not mainly effected by minimum wage as if you're proving something. Fifteen dollars in some areas is not a huge jump. What a lot of us are asking for is a living wage. Not everywhere is going to need a 'jump' to fifteen dollars an hour.

Places with a very low cost of living probably won't need it. However, in places like New York City, St. Louis and Chicago? That's not a huge jump at all.

HouseOfWolves;:

Though we do obviously need people to do the shitty work no one wants to do, we shouldn't inspire them to want to do it. That's why raising min. wage by the bit that you described would help aid those doing the things no one wants, but still help them inspire to do better. Who's going to want the stress of being doctor if they can make easy money cleaning bathrooms?

You know, that argument sounds logical. It really does, but it's not actually accurate at all. If pay was the single motivator in getting a job, then no one would be applying to be a teacher, because in some states they're paid a ridiculously low amount. Hell, if pay was the single motivator? Everyone would be scrambling to be a garbage collector, but do you know a single person even seeking out that job? I'm asking, because in 2011, garbage collectors earned, on average, between 11.25 an hour and 20.52 an hour. Hell, in New York, garbagemen made over 40 grand a year. So where are all the people quitting medical school to become garbage collectors?

@ CallusedSilk
You do raise a valid point; people become doctors or teachers, like you said, because they want to help people or kids. I only say this, because in my high school economics class, when my teacher asked us if we would make fifteen dollars an hour cleaning bathrooms or driving a bus as opposed to going to college for any amount of time to only make a portion of money more than that, most kids chose to just clean bathrooms. People aren't motivated to anything these days. They'd rather take the easy way out, where they're less likely to screw up, where they're less likely to do more physical or mental work. Though this is only one factor, as you said, it's a large one, and needs to be seriously considered.

Just going to put in my two cents here. Not ALL minimum wage jobs are for teenagers. My first actual job was a personal care assistant. I worked for 7.25$ an hour, 12 days in a row no break, I drove over 200 miles a week (I saw over because just for one of my clients to get to her house was 47 miles to get back home was the same, and I saw her four times a week.) I helped with organizing medicine, cleaning toilets, cleaning bodily fluids most would have a heartattack even being in the room. I made sure blood sugars were checked, if anything seemed out of the normal I called the hospital. Yet, I only got paid time AT clients house. So, I'd be lucky to work maybe 6 hours a day, the other hours were me driving between clients. By the end of the pay period I would be lucky to have 130$ of bill spending money, by the end of bills I would be broke.

It would be nice if they had minimum wages for teenagers who are at home with guardians, problem is some of us HAVE to do these jobs that teenagers are supposed to do. In small towns or cities there aren't tons of places looking to hire adults without certain schooling requirements or previous experience in that certain field. Usually all that's hiring are the "small" jobs. Someone's got to do it, and some of us will do anything to make even the slightest bit of a living.

Also, like some have said 15$ an hour isn't that big of an increase in higher living places. I would be happy with 9$ an hour... I just want to be able to pay my bills without feeling like a burden. But I guess that's my fault for not being able to keep a home and being able to afford school out of pocket.

If minimum wage raises will make prices go up then shouldn't prices have not gone up without an increase? I can tell you that didn't happen. Prices of things are going up now and we aren't able to pay for it. Prices will continue to go up even without a wage increase.

Also keeping the minimum wage low hurts PEOPLE. Small businesses aren't people. I care more about people than businesses.

@ HouseOfWolves;
I'm not sure if asking high school kids what they're going to do with their life is the best showcase. In high school if anyone asked me the question 'more school or anything else', I would have chosen 'anything else', not because I didn't actually want to further my education or get a good career, but because I was tired of school. If we're going to take a high school poll seriously (which I don't) then you have to take into account that at least 30% of that class, guaranteed, didn't vote at all. Also, we have to take into account that if you're in high school and taking an economics class? You're probably doing it so you can be prepared for college. Otherwise there are a couple other routes they could have taken to fulfill their math credits, and probably would be easier classes.

Let's not forget specialized jobs pay less because they can. I did graphic design at OfficeMax and got paid shit. Is that a grocery bagger job? No, it requires a lot of on the job learning and I worked harder than my sibs did in their full one jobs. But I had no car and limited options so I worked my ass off and got screwed. I could make $20 an hour doing graphic design elsewhere

I'm in central New York and minimum wage in my *general area is anywhere from $8 to $8.25. I personally think it's a bunch of bull.

* I'm in the boonies so my "general area" only includes about three or four towns. One of them is big enough to be considered a city population wise but not business wise.

So I actually live in Seattle, where the minimum wage bill has been passed and is waiting for us to vote. It's been a pretty controversial subject here as well. Here's what I know:

Inflation: No one's ignoring or denying that inflation is going to happen. That would be woefully ignorant, and mean that none of our lawmakers have even a slight handle on the basics of economics. But they have calculated that, right now, people will still be making about 2.5% more than they were, even with inflation. That's actually a pretty significant amount, and can make the difference between keeping the lights and still have water on, or being able to buy food and still pay the $20 for your kid's field trip.

Employment: A lot of people are harping about the fact that people will get laid off, and I've literally heard people vouch for bad employees. Most of the complaints have been, "What if I'm a good worker, but I'm come in late or call out sick a lot? Do I just lose my job?"

...

Yes. Because you're not a good worker. You should be terminated anyway, and that pay will go to someone who's dedicated and deserves that money. Next.

It's not enough: Some people have been carping about how $15 isn't enough to make living wage anyway, it should be $16 or $17. And to those people I have to say:

The point is not to fix the entire problem in one fell swoop. This bill isn't meant to eradicate the poverty line as we know it and be entirely rid of homelessness and guarantee that every child will have three square meals a day and a safe home to sleep in. It can't do that. However, it is a very admirable first step towards those goals, and one which should be applauded. Seattle is under the eye of the country right now, and being criticized by every other newspaper in the nation, but...

Where's your solution?

Who it affects: By far, one of the worst arguments I've seen posted has been, "This bill is to benefit middle and upper middle class people, while the working class will be left out." False. That's just wrong. It's not like every single working person in Seattle is getting a wage increase. It's only those who have minimum wage jobs. This bill could make a huge difference in everyday workers lives, and is an important first step toward the country seeing that working class people deserve protection, too.

And lastly, but certainly not least:

Who's complaining?: People who can afford to pay all their bills without borrowng money or pulling from savings. People who can afford new shoes every month for their kid who keeps growing out of them. People who can afford to live life without too much monetary worry or insecurity, going on vacations from time to time and able to afford to see their kid's $15 high school play.

People making more than minimum wage.

@ ur_best_nightmare
I don't know that it will lead to less jobs. In San Jose, a year after they raised, they have less unemployment and more new businesses. That means the economy is growing.

A big issue that I've encountered with minimum wage is that there are ways around paying it. Last summer I made, as my official wage, $6.50/hour. That's 75¢ below minimum wage. Before taxes. And even working an average of the maximum 40 hours/week, I barely made anything from February weekends through the whole summer to the end of October. For part of that I was 15 years old. The way that they could do that though is that it was technically a "part time seasonal" position. Seasonal. But I worked outside of the main season. And at maximum hours.
I don't know that the minimum wage needs to be raised. But I do think that at the very least, a look at the law is in order. Because that shouldn't be allowed. Granted, I was 15/16. I didn't need to support myself. But I've worked more hours, or equal hours to my father's full time job this summer, and I'll be lucky if what I've made will buy my books through four years of college.
Maybe it's just me, but that doesn't seem right.