Brexit

  • lozzieee who.

    lozzieee who. (610)

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    I understand that this is a contentious topic. This is a place for civilised discussion between those on any side of the debate. Any opinion is welcome, as long as it is not inflammatory and is within Mibbas own forum guidelines.

    Please be civil and respectful to each other, regardless of viewpoint.
    I'll begin by stating I voted Remain, and still would vote Remain. My reasons for this are numerous, from Human Rights protections, international peace relations, and the Common Market. I personally believe that membership of the EU is almost wholly beneficial to the UK.

    I'm very frustrated by how both sides of the campaign last year perpetuated half truths and offered no proper information to voters on what was right and what was wrong with the EU. There's a lot of misinformation about regarding the EU and it's unreasonable to expect members of the public to find the time and place to educate themselves on the organisation.

    So, for anyone interested, I wanted to create a place where people could provide information to each other, from any side of the political spectrum, and where people can learn and make up their own minds on whether Brexit is a good idea or not.

    Happy debating!
    December 6th, 2017 at 04:29pm
  • Ethan :D

    Ethan :D (100)

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    Just thought I'd say it the human rights act 1998 enshrined the European human rights into UK law meaning that you can defend your rights in court. As well as that, the Government published a White Paper in the Great Repeal Bill on 30 March 2017 that will keep EU law wherever possible.

    Well said though :)
    Plus I totally agree that there was plenty of misinformation involved. Hell I didn't even get a vote Sad
    December 6th, 2017 at 09:23pm
  • lozzieee who.

    lozzieee who. (610)

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    That's my big worry though, they're fighting to leave the Social Charter, where a lot of rights are kept that haven't been entrenched into Law (nice explanation of HRA though, I'm sure many don't know that). The ECHR might be a good chunk of rights and that may currently be in UK law by way of the HRA, but it wouldn't take much to repeal that Act. It's not that I don't trust them, but I really don't trust them!

    Also, what do you think about there being no sector impact assessments?
    December 7th, 2017 at 11:37am
  • Ethan :D

    Ethan :D (100)

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    On the point of repealing the HRA no government in there right mind would run with repeals and be successful at the end of the day the government had to form a coalition with the DUP so the majority is rubbish and a repeal would never go past second reading.

    On the sector impact assessments I believe one would have been nice however a successful one would be too difficult to produce. What I personally think is that the Labour Party played a hardball into the conservative court and they were unable to deliver.

    It sucks that even an issue so important as Brexit is being used as a political football. However I must agree with Davis on the fact that there are way too many variables to quantify, claiming it would happen when 'we are closer to the negotiating table'. so to do it right now would be premature in my eyes.

    What do you think? Very Happy
    December 7th, 2017 at 06:02pm
  • lozzieee who.

    lozzieee who. (610)

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    Oh definitely, unless they had a vast majority or at least plenty of people on their side, the HRA is likely to stay, thankfully. I really don't want a domestic Bill of Rights - any Govt could attempt to amend it at any time and that lack of clarity would just end up confusing us, the ones who have the rights. But I'm an enormous cynic haha!

    I fully agree that there are way too many variables to get any concrete information on how all of this is gonna affect the economy, from individual sectors to the whole of it. But like you say, surely one or two could have been attempted so we'd have at least a bit of an idea what's gonna happen?

    I think something should have been done long before even the referendum, just to see if it was a good idea at all. There's some scary things going around, from Uni's closing and banks moving elsewhere, and all of that could badly impact the economy.

    But at the same time, you can tell the EU are just as scared of losing us as we are of losing them. We're a big lynchpin in their Common Market, we import a lot of stuff through the bloc, and us pulling out will cause them a lot of problems.

    I'll always be Remain, but we democratically voted to Leave. I just want another referendum to clarify - repeated voting is surely what democracy is all about?

    (Ooh I bloody love a good political discussion!)
    December 8th, 2017 at 03:11pm
  • Ethan :D

    Ethan :D (100)

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    December 8th, 2017 at 07:30pm
  • Ethan :D

    Ethan :D (100)

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    @ lozzieee who.
    Well we began to consider leaving the EU at about 2010 with the Lib Dems forming a coalition with the Conservatives. both of which made a decision that there should be a referendum held, in
    2013 for 2015, before a final decision on where Britain's stance is on the EU. There was definitely a lot of preparation and consideration before deciding to have a referendum on leaving the EU,even if this was rushed forward by rebels within the Tories which is one reason why we may not have seen the most effective Brexit so far. Britain's relationship with the EU has always been shaky, especially under Thatcher, so this question has always been on our lips from when the referendum to continue the EU membership was posed in 1975 to today where we are now bickering over deals, and solutions to problems we created in yesterday's work xd.

    In terms of democracy I think the media had a responsibility to deliver the news as it is and as it is needed. However, as they are privately owned, personal opinion gets in the way of proper journalism. This misinformation most certainly to blame for the result. However, I don't see a second referendum changing this. I feel like the media has not learned anything and would carry on as they are. This would show a very pro remain stance, I would think, after the **** show Theresa has put on for us. Yet this would not necessarily make it more democratic as it would likely be a repeat of the last referendum.

    I think we now need to rely on our representatives to find a solid balance between serving the national interests but also the consideration of constituencies, especially in terms of employment and what you mentioned about uni's and banks.

    On the common market I think it would not be a bad thing for the UK to regain control over it's own economy and to also retain some Sovereignty, also the government did promise to regain control of its borders and this is one way of doing it. I also would not mind a reform of CAP as I think it's a bit rubbish and very expensive on the government and therefore the consumers (from tax). The CAP heavily favours farmers and heavily favours France, Which receives about 22% of the benefits of CAP, where the UK only gets about 8%.

    So my overall point is that the process is still democratic, the media isn't democratic and we need to trust our representatives to represent us.

    (I'm gonna assume that you have studied politics previously? I take it for A level :D)
    plus I am pro Remain, as you can see there is Netherlands next to my name as I am in an expat family. so my reasons are quite self explanatory.
    December 8th, 2017 at 07:38pm
  • nearly witches.

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    I'm very angry about the entire Brexit thing but probably from a slightly different reason base than you guys. For starters, I voted to remain and so did the majority of the rest of Scotland if the results are shown -- we're basically being pulled out against our will because we're still tied to the UK. I voted to leave the UK in the independence referendum and honestly, I felt slightly worried after I did so about the EU membership because there was so much scaremongering done by the remain side at that time about us losing our EU membership if we voted to leave the UK. It was one of the biggest selling points of the referendum and I know friends who voted remain purely on that point. Not even five years down the line and we're being pulled out anyway. Personally, I reckon we should have left to begin with if they weren't going to keep up on promises / threats that were done at the time, and it's infuriating. It just feels less democratic than the EU itself -- all countries involved have to agree but in the UK, a 50/50 split constitutes pulling 2 countries out of a union they don't want to leave anyway. I just... something with it doesn't sit right with me.

    I also know a few people who voted to leave the EU due to the Schengen agreement and the whole free movement thing, but a lot of them don't think about the fact that we'll now need visas to enter countries for holidays -- one of my friends at work was totally horrified when we pointed out that we'll probably now need some form of visa to go to Spain. I'm lucky that I experienced the ERASMUS programme at uni, and it let me go live in the Netherlands for six months without any hassle or worries. The Turks that stayed in our flats were having to get visas and living permits and all sorts, and they spent their first weeks going back and forth to the embassies to fix it all up. That's the bit that's worrying me the most (I know nothing about economy so can't comment on it), because I love travelling and it's going to put a serious dent in those plans, as well as plans for working abroad -- the music industry is easier to get into out in the likes of Benelux and Germany and I always had intentions of moving but those are slightly more difficult plans to pull off now. So mostly selfish reasons for me, but it's worrying nonetheless, especially with the way the pound is falling against every single currency. It's going to make life so much more difficult, and we're going to struggle to afford nice things in my opinion. There's a lot of EU funding up here (and Wales as well, I believe, but I'm not up on politics outwith Scotland) that's going to be lost and cause farming and fishing to struggle, especially with the farming side. They basically get paid to keep fields empty every 4 years or something and now they're going to have to grow more to get profits from those fields, which means more work, more potential employees and more chance of not having money due to a failed crop. Or at least that's my understanding of it from a couple of friends with farming backgrounds. It's horrible to see everybody so worried about what's going to happen.

    I'm also worried with the way everything's being handled from both sides. I feel like May is just pissing about and at this stage, we can't afford it. It took her so long to get any kind of deal and even then, it seemed to just dissolve into a pissing match between us and the EU. And then the oppositions (SNP included, I'm not gonna exclude them here) for all countries seem to just wanna laugh at May instead of doing something to help. It's divided the government more than it already was, divided the countries more than they were (I've had loads of snide and frankly nasty remarks slid my way by customers at work in relation to Scotland voting to stay) and it's just making everybody so angry all the time.

    I've basically accepted that we're not going to get anything from it up here, so I'm just waiting to see what the fallout is. Because May was prepared to consider special cases for NI and not for Scotland (which I get is definitely because of the Tory-DUP thing), there's massive talks of another independence referendum for Scotland being brought up again but I think Sturgeon had said she was waiting until after Brexit is completed before she chooses whether or not to try and push it through parliament again, based on Scotland's best interests not being considered in decisions. It'll be interesting to see how it ends, nonetheless.
    December 8th, 2017 at 07:58pm
  • Ethan :D

    Ethan :D (100)

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    Well I can definitely see the frustration from Scotland as 62% voted to remain. What I personally believe is that there should have been a measure to which there had to be a certain % that leave had to reach to trigger Brexit because a 50/50 vote makes us literally half-hearted about the whole thing. Interestingly the Scottish vote of independence I think needed 55% of leave for it to trigger, so why we didn't use that is beyond me.

    Ireland, Scotland and Wales do have limited influence over the goings of Parliament. Though there is always a nice heated debate over the idea of further devolution and as it stands I would expect to see Ireland getting more power as they formed a coalition with the conservatives.

    so what about voter turnout? In Scotland for example, 2.6 million people voted in the referendum yet it has a adult voting population of 5,404,700. England has a adult voting population of about 37 million (rough statistics as the actual number evaded me so I was forced to do some maths) yet only 28 million voted. And so on.

    So what I must ask the UK is

    Where were the 30 odd million people when their countries needed them most?
    December 8th, 2017 at 08:17pm
  • lozzieee who.

    lozzieee who. (610)

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    @ Ethan :D
    Yeah, I studied Politics at A Level and have been very interested in Politics since I was about your age. It's nice to see a well balanced argument about it all, instead of the bile most spew about it :) I hope you keep up with it because you're clearly very good at it!

    I completely agree that the media are undemocratic, completely. Their political bias definitely influenced the vote and would influence a second ref in the same way. I try to take media stories with a pinch of salt and get at least two sides, but I have the luxury of time being a student to do that. Full time workers don't.

    The problem is there's an enormous culture of political apathy in the UK. Clearly half the country don't feel represented or that their vote matters. Can it really be a democratic vote if only half the country actually voiced their opinion? And the sad thing is, the loudest complainants are nearly always the ones who didn't vote. Or at least it is around here, I can't speak for the rest of the country.

    @ nearly witches.
    Oh god yes, the way Scotland has been treated through all of this is not good at all. I think the voice of the Scottish has been silenced on far too many issues and Brexit threatens to undermine Scottish devolution. We have a similar problem in the North East of England, we're left out almost as much as Scotland is tbh. There will be a knock on effect on farmers, definitely. Trade will be significantly affected if we don't get a good deal, because right now there isn't allowed to be a customs charge or equivalent on goods, but I really don't think we'll be able to benefit from those same rules, and that'll hit Scotland, Wales and the North of England the hardest I think.

    The economic affects aren't looking too good at all, but at the same time it's almost impossible to predict. Like Ethan said, our country has had a tricky relationship at best with the EU - hell, just look at how many EU cases are called Commission v UK or similar in European case law. And it's always us being deliberately obstinate. I've always thought the EU was a good thing for us and I still stand by that. My part of this country will suffer greatly without help from the EU, and the Government is certainly not going to fill that gap.

    My biggest worry was whether my friend was allowed to stay in this country. As nice as it is that she is allowed to stay, that's not something we should have to be celebrating. It should have always been a given. It's effing miserable for people to be in a position where they worry about visiting home for fear they won't be able to come back to their partners and friends. I love Free Movement of People and it sickens me that people voted Leave on that basis alone. Our borders aren't fully at the behest of the EU. Third state nationals - people outside the EU - are let in by the Government and only by the Government. That's a domestic issue.

    I don't like the argument about sovereignty, most of the information surrounding it is false and a vast amount of the population don't know what that term legally and politically means. People seem to think the EU can legislate on anything they choose. But they really can't. Only if it's in a Treaty and within the scope of the EU's power - free movement of people, free movement of goods or human rights - can they issue a Directive or a regulation or even an opinion. It has to have legal basis. But mostly, we have the power of veto on anything (other than Directives) and have a large amount of votes to use given our wealth and population, and anything we can't veto we agreed to hand over decision making to the EU when we voted to join the bloc in 1972.

    I'm just passionate about justice and freedom, and I believe that EU membership has tried to facilitate that. I'm constantly worried that my position in life will only get worse without it. Obviously it's all personal opinion with only some fact to back it up (credit to my uni for some of this info).
    December 12th, 2017 at 06:55pm
  • nearly witches.

    nearly witches. (14970)

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    @ Ethan :D
    It's been the same for years -- yes, Scotland has a say in some things but we're too small, realistically, to do anything of note because we're always drowned out by majority down south. There's about 2 million more people in London than there is in the entirety of Scotland, so we get outvoted on things a lot of the time. Good example of that is that, as far as I'm aware, we're the only country in the UK to unanimously vote against the nukes, yet those ended up happening (and right on our doorstep but that's another argument for a different day). It's really frustrating, as somebody who's been brought up with a very strong emphasis on politics (my dad is super political) to see it working as lopsidedly as it does with the whole England-versus-Scotland thing every time. It's also really frustrating to me that people think I hate the English, which is apparently a common sentiment down south. Most of Scotland doesn't hate England -- they just hate Westminster because disproportionate votes like this one show that we really don't have much of a voice at all and that we're really not being listened to. The independence referendum is a perfect example, for sure -- I'm almost sure the trigger point was set at 55% as a point of being safe as it was a big decision, which is more than half of the country and yet the overall UK vote to leave the EU was what, 51.9% or something like that? It just seems strange that the 55% would have been imposed on the referendum for Scottish independence but not on the one for the EU, which is arguably a far bigger vote as it affects more than just Scotland. I'd have expected the government to take a very safe stance on it, such as they did for the independence referendum.

    I'd love to see powers further devolved away from Westminster, I really would, but honestly I don't see it happening in the near future. We asked for more power when we voted to remain in the UK and we got barely anything. Holyrood is currently trying to get more devolved powers around matters relating to drugs and drug abuse and I don't even think we'll get that. I feel like Westminster perhaps sees us as the rebel colony (for lack of a better phrase) and especially with all of the uncertainty, I don't see us (or Wales / NI for that matter) getting anything else until we see how the country settles after we actually leave the EU, particularly when Westminster probably want to keep a handle on us to stop us from doing anything stupid (in the vein of Indyref2) that'll further damage the economy in the UK. To be honest, I think even Sturgeon is apprehensive about calling for Indyref2 because honestly, she knows as well as everybody else that the UK breaking away from the EU and then us breaking away from the UK (and there's serious calls for it up here -- a lot more people are far angrier than they were the first time around) is basically suicide both for us and for the UK. We need to wait until the dust settles on Brexit before anything else is decided. We'll know more about what the country will look like at that point. I'm in no way an SNP supporter, but I think that them and Sturgeon are doing the right thing by not trying to rock the boat just now. There'll be time in the future, but this isn't the time.

    The voter turnout in the UK is ridiculous. As I said above, I lived in the Netherlands for 6 months in 2015 and lived with international students from all across the globe and most of them were horrified when we talked about the lack of people voting because they're so used to virtually everybody voting back in their own home countries. I feel like, at least from Scotland's perspective (possibly Wales and NI too, but I speak only for Scotland because I experience it firsthand and don't wanna make assumptions about other areas) a lot of people feel like their vote is nigh-on-useless. Still, something needs to be done about it. Scotland's highest turnout of voters was for Indyref, but we don't seem to turn up for anything else. I think it's like lozzieee who. says -- we're far too apathetic when it comes to politics in the entirety of the UK. I just wish we could have the turnout we had for Indyref for other things. So many teenagers here were turned onto politics with it but then just dropped off when it came to GEs and the suchlike.

    @ lozzieee who.
    It's ridiculous on so many levels, seriously. I feel like the only time we're addressed is when Sturgeon kicks up a fuss about [insert political issue that affects Scotland but we're not consulted / listened to on said matter] and even then, it feels like we're being placated and then brushed under the carpet again. As I mentioned above in my reply to Ethan, I'm not a fan of the SNP (I much prefer the Scottish Greens, who have more of a political stance than simply shouting 'we want independence' every couple of years) but sometimes I can see why they push for independence so much. We've barely been consulted on Brexit at all, and I completely understand why Sturgeon was so angry when the DUP were trying to tailor-make NI's stance when we hadn't even been asked at all. Oh man, the north definitely feel like they're with us sometimes. I had a friend at work from Newcastle, and he always felt like the entire city was being totally ignored. It's all one for me to complain about Scotland, but we get a bit of a say sometimes. I feel like the North just has to go along with London / Central / Southern England on everything even though you guys clearly have different needs to the major cities who have finance as their primary industry. Or at least that's the impression I got from my colleague. Scotland already struggles with increased pricing for select things when it comes to the Highlands (which are classed in with the islands despite being on the main island -- never could work that one out myself, I'm just thankful I live on the central belt!) and as far as I know, Wales does in more rural areas too. Increasing anything is going to cause an absolute nightmare for the areas that're already struggling. I vaguely remember reading somewhere that Wales is going to be hit really hard because they receive the most funding from EU initiatives, which I really hope doesn't happen.

    Yeah, it's definitely really difficult to predict what's going to happen. I think that's part of the reason why we're waiting on Indyref2 -- Sturgeon's waiting to see how adversely we'll be affected before deciding whether to pull a second referendum because honestly, I think if we pulled it now, we'd leave but it might not be best for us anymore. I know that at least Germany and France said they'd back us re-joining as quickly as they could get us in, but on the opposite hand Spain really don't like the idea of Scottish independence because it just adds fuel to the whole Catalunya fire so they'll oppose us being candidates for our own separate membership. And with the economy in a shambles as it is, if we secede just now, we're basically completely damning the entire country to a pretty damn shitty existence. I honestly don't know how it'll play out and the uncertainty coupled with the idea that we're not on the best of terms with any country (let's be honest, most countries don't like us or if they didn't mind us, probably don't like us now) just makes me really uneasy. I guess we'll have to wait and see how it plays out though.

    That was one of my big worries too. There's a couple of people that I'm really friendly with at work who were worried about being told to go back home, and you're right, it shouldn't be something we have to celebrate. The other negative thing about it was the slew of racism that followed. I saw some of the stories in the news the day after the referendum and some of the things that were being said to people not of UK origin was disgusting, to put it frankly. I'm much like yourself -- I totally believe that free movement is a massively good thing and it honestly infuriates me that people voted simply to 'shut the border to terrorists' or whatever, especially considering people were complaining about people from Syria a lot (or at least they were up here) and it doesn't even apply to Syrians, never mind the fact that most of the 'foreign terrorists' these people complain about are UK born and bred. Rolling Eyes

    The whole 'taking back our country' thing really irritates me. It's never not been our country. I don't understand why people think the EU dictates every step we take when we have elections to determine who we put in parliament for those issues.

    I feel like we definitely flourish better within the EU and I'm really worried, much like you, that my position is going to get far worse. I'm nowhere near a politics genius -- I did music at uni, so beyond basic contract law and how it works with the EU, I have no credible backup other than what I've seen on both Scottish and UK-wide news programmes. I just have bad feelings about the entire thing, and they haven't gone away ever since the result was announced.
    December 12th, 2017 at 08:24pm