Transexual/Transgender rights

Xsoteria:

I've googled a bit and it seems a lot of people assumed women would be terrified of transexual persons, as they are distinctively called, so much in fact that there has been a legitimate act passed in Britain, which denies these transsexual persons from being a part of group therapies and acting as counselors. link to a second hand source

I guess the problem is solved. For everyone but transsexual persons.

And I don't think that's right. I think as needed, on a case by case basis, that another solution would need to be explored should the problem arise.

But I'm also not going to go so far as to say rape victims should just suck it up or something either.

kafka.:

I don't understand, who is being denied treatment? Was anybody saying that trans women shouldn't be allowed to receive counselling?

Not that with statistics consistently showing that 1 in 4 women gets sexually assaulting at least once during their lifetime and the vast, vast majority of the abusers being cis men, there aren't very many very rational reasons for women to be scared of penises.

I'm not following sorry. Obviously transsexual women wouldn't be allowed to take part in group therapy, that was the discussion for the past several posts.

From your post it seems to me like you're saying that because cis men are the vast majority of assaulters, trans women would have been unlikely victims. And that "real women" are justified in their fear of transsexual persons who are, after all, inclined to rape others, as commanded by their penis.

Unrelated to your post:

I wonder what about those transsexual persons who underwent SRS and no longer have a penis to rape with? Or those who are sly and sneaky enough to pass as regular women? Should they be kicked out of the therapy after a traumatised real woman expresses her concern that there is an impostor among them? Should there be a genital examination required? What about manly looking real women?

There are so many interesting questions here.

dru runs this town.:

I think there should be multiple support groups.

Group for women and a group for those who have uncontrolable fear of men and transwomen (and maybe some ugly women hey)?

Or a group for women and a group for halfwomen?

^
I wasn't even thinking it needed to go so far as that. More like 'Mary, I understand that you are feeling uncomfortable in this group so why don't we schedule you into the Thursday group instead?' Or see what else works.

I don't think it even needs to go so far as separating different types of women; just making sure people are comfortable where they are. Not every female rape survivor will be scared of transwomen, so there's no reason to keep them separate.

Does that make any sense?

I just don't think it needs to be made an issue unless it needs to be made an issue.

^Oh. I uh, guess I agree with you.

I mean, obviously, it would be preferred that the issue didn't arise, that the counselor might be able to talk to the woman in a way that would make her feel comfortable. But in the situation it does arise, it should just be treated as an issue of trying to get all individuals involved the environment necessary to facilitate their treatment well.

I mean, honestly, how many people actually understand gender identities other than cis? If someone explained it to them, all of their fear might be abated. (And hopefully a counselor could do that, one-on-one, of course.0

Xsoteria:

I'm not following sorry. Obviously transsexual women wouldn't be allowed to take part in group therapy, that was the discussion for the past several posts.

Trans women wouldn't take part in certain therapy groups - groups in which cis men also don't participate, but nobody's suggested so far that cis women are the only ones entitled to therapy of any kind and when anybody else suffers from abuse or anxiety problems, they should be denied treatment.

Quote

From your post it seems to me like you're saying that because cis men are the vast majority of assaulters, trans women would have been unlikely victims. And that "real women" are justified in their fear of transsexual persons who are, after all, inclined to rape others, as commanded by their penis.

I wasn't say that at all? Trans women are more likely to be abused as cis ones - my point was merely that women (cis or trans) live in a world where if they're lucky they'll have a 25% chance of getting sexually abused - if they're trans or POC that risk will be much higher. The abuse cis men inflict on women (cis or trans) is so widespread and systematic, it's not irrational that women - especially when confronted with abuse - become scared of men or what they perceive to be signs of maleness in an equally widespread / systematic way. And, yeah, it's really great that you think that if you'll ever need counselling to cope with being rape, you'll want your group to be made out of trans people as well. It's just that because you're male, unless you go to prison, your chances of being raped are so small for you rape is just a very interesting topic of discussion, not something you confront every time you walk out the door.

^So according to your first paragraph, it's completely appropriate for trans women to be excluded from a women's therapy group, simply because, hey cis men aren't allowed so why should trans women be allowed? Nice.

I also appologise for being male, I forgot how that invalidates my opinions on womyn matters such as being raped.

It's nice to report something nice. After the transgendered MtF contestant was ousted from the Miss Universe pageant, they changed the rules so that transgendered contestants could enter and the ousted contestant will be competing next year.

Xsoteria:

I also appologise for being male, I forgot how that invalidates my opinions on womyn matters such as being raped.

Nobody said your opinion was invalidated. The point was raised that, assuming you are a cis male who has been raised within rape culture (some of which may be wrong), you will have certain internalised perspectives and more than likely be incapable of perceiving the extent of the internalisation of the fears/messages that cis women like myself have always been taught. These pale in comparison with the messages/violence perpetrated against trans men and women, which I fully acknowledge, but that doesn't allay cis-female fears/messages, or change cis-female rape statistics, or invalidate those concerns, just as your lowered risk (and, consequently, understanding/fear/reality) of rape doesn't invalidate your thoughts on the matter.

tl;dr - I don't share/know the experience of a trans person. You (presumably) do not share/know the experience of a cis female. Facts. Nobody should be offended and discourse/communication is great, particularly when communicating with someone whose voice has been marginalised/compromised (historically or today) because nobody wants other people to speak for them. (Even if it is great when people speak with them.)

Interesting blog looking at social/structural changes over the last few years and some trans positives.
Seven Things About Being Trans That Are Actually Kind of Awesome.

Sex changes aren't recognised by Irish law, but they say they may bring about legislation soon. I wonder how that'll work out?

@ kafka.

Quote

Trans women wouldn't take part in certain therapy groups - groups in which cis men also don't participate

But, the thing is, transwomen aren't cismen. In fact, they aren't even men. They're women. Comparing a transwoman and a cisman, in this context, I find to be pretty discriminatory. From the way I'm interpreting it, you're basically undermining a transwoman's gender identity and grouping transwomen with cismen because of their biological/assigned at birth sex.

If anything, a transman should be the transgender person to be compared with a cisgender man in this context.

So, I've learned a lot of new things about transsexuals because of a TV show I love called Taboo.

For one thing I learned, I thought it was really interesting to learn that the reason many transsexuals are well, transsexual, is because for some, during pregnancy their gender identity was different from their physical gender. I thought that was really interesting to know for some reason and it makes complete sense.

Also something really interesting that I leaned is that for the Bugis people of Indonesia, there are five genders that are recognized. There are the typical male and female, then there's the transgendered male and female, then there's the hybrids. Some of them believe that the hybrids are closest to god and I think it's because they represent both a male and female. At first I thought it would conflict with Islam, but the Qur'an never really says much of anything about transgendered people and Indonesians don't have a rule against homosexuality, so they don't really care, I guess. I think that if they had that in America, life would be slightly easier for transgendered people.

Although this has nothing to do with their rights, I say everyone should have rights. I think that if you're human and you're not harming anyone to a great instinct (because some people would claim that LGBT people just being LGBT harms them), then they should have rights.

(is transgendered and transsexual the same? I'm dumb)

@ Ayana Sioux

Transgendered is the umbrella term whereas transsexual specifies someone who has transitioned (although it's not as used now because...I dunno)

You can identify as transgender without being a transsexual.

z o m b i e:

@ kafka.

But, the thing is, transwomen aren't cismen. In fact, they aren't even men. They're women. Comparing a transwoman and a cisman, in this context, I find to be pretty discriminatory. From the way I'm interpreting it, you're basically undermining a transwoman's gender identity and grouping transwomen with cismen because of their biological/assigned at birth sex.

If anything, a transman should be the transgender person to be compared with a cisgender man in this context.

And you're undermining the overwhelming prevalence of gender-specific violence (inflicted by MAABs on FAABs) in our society and trying to tell abuse survivors which responses to abuse are 'appropriate' and which are not.

@ Ayana Sioux
I get really confused on transgendered/transexual too. My sister refers to herself as transgendered, so that's what I tend to go with.

However, on the in the womb thing ... my sister is MtF transgendered and my grandmother was convinced that when my mom was pregnant that she was pregnant with a girl. She was so convinced she knitted a girl and boy blanket because my mom insisted the doctor was right and Grandma insisted she was right.

@ dru will wait.
Ha, wow, that's ironic.

Didn't read the comments, simply the blog itself and I say, "No."

Khenti-Amenti:

Didn't read the comments, simply the blog itself and I say, "No."

No what? No rights for people who do not fall under male/female? No rights for people who are transgendered/transexual?

kafka.:

It's just that because you're male, unless you go to prison, your chances of being raped are so small for you rape is just a very interesting topic of discussion, not something you confront every time you walk out the door.

I understand that this was posted a very long time ago, long enough to the point that it's unnecessary for me to be replying so late, but I find this incredibly upsetting. I've always been peeved by any suggestion following the idea of the statement: "You couldn't possibly understand my pain." Just because one does not qualify doesn't mean that they can't fathom the gravity of the situation. You can't cheapen a man's opinion of rape just because he doesn't face the same odds as women do.

Besides, I don't think that it's as drastic as you put it. Of course, I'm not saying that women don't face a much greater risk of being raped, because they obviously do. But you make it sound like every woman leaves her house in terror because there's an off chance that she could be raped while she's out. I don't think most women "confront" the idea of rape every time they walk out the door. If they do, then there's some serious anxiety issues going on there.

Khenti-Amenti:

Didn't read the comments, simply the blog itself and I say, "No."

I, too, am curious of the intentions of this statement.