Transexual/Transgender rights

  • ^That's what I said, it's probably not meant to discriminate, but it does. It's in effect for about 6 months now, but I don't know whether or not have there been people who have been discriminated against.

    It's still a regulation (basically a rule, it's a part of the "Passanger protect" set of regulations, which aren't discussed like laws) which basically invites flight personel to ban passangers who "don't seem to match their gender (or age lol)". If you don't see how that could end up being a problem (or already was, idk), then I don't know what to say.
    February 3rd, 2012 at 03:10pm
  • Hi everyone,

    I'm currently studying gender performance and gender identity within Silence of the Lambs, Hitchcock's psycho and the Texas Chainsaw Massacre which deals with transgender issues. The focus of the essay is about the protagonist's lack their own identity. When they kill, they all wear a costume during their 'performance' - this is try and gain a new identity.

    My question is that we begin to understand binary opposites (e.g. boy/girl, blue/pink) and the stereotypes of gender when we are children; around the same time we begin to form our own identity. Do you believe that if a child is unsure which gender role they feel comfortable with and wish to ‘perform’ to then the child will struggle to find their own personal identity? Or do you believe that gender and identity do no interlink and the lack of one won't hinder the other?

    (I hope this makes clear sense! It's for my film A-Level coursework so it isn't a topic in which I am very strong/knowledgeable with. Thanks for taking your time to read this!) Shifty
    February 22nd, 2012 at 10:37pm
  • AlexaTheRockstar:
    Hi everyone,

    I'm currently studying gender performance and gender identity within Silence of the Lambs, Hitchcock's psycho and the Texas Chainsaw Massacre which deals with transgender issues. The focus of the essay is about the protagonist's lack their own identity. When they kill, they all wear a costume during their 'performance' - this is try and gain a new identity.

    My question is that we begin to understand binary opposites (e.g. boy/girl, blue/pink) and the stereotypes of gender when we are children; around the same time we begin to form our own identity. Do you believe that if a child is unsure which gender role they feel comfortable with and wish to ‘perform’ to then the child will struggle to find their own personal identity? Or do you believe that gender and identity do no interlink and the lack of one won't hinder the other?

    (I hope this makes clear sense! It's for my film A-Level coursework so it isn't a topic in which I am very strong/knowledgeable with. Thanks for taking your time to read this!) Shifty
    This thread is about trans rights specifically. And quite honestly, I don't like the idea of my identity being the object of study of a classroom where almost everyone (most likely including the teacher) is cisgender. Do congratulate your professor for being so creative as to focus on the portrayals of trans people that depict us as caricatures of people with mental illnesses. (Because implying trans people are "insane" and therefore dangerous is not ableist or cissexist at all, no).

    To answer your question: there is no universal trans experience. No answer anyone gives you will accurately represent the entire trans community. I can tell you that I never went on a killing spree when I was struggling to figure out my gender identity, though.

    (Also, wow, I don't want to think of those movies any more than I want to think of The Skin I Live In when thinking of trans issues.)
    February 23rd, 2012 at 12:22am
  • ^
    I have to agree that I'm incredibly disappointed that they didn't choose some other films if the study is gender roles and transgendered/transsexual individuals. You would think a school would want to give students positive individuals to write about.

    However, I don't agree that a class shouldn't be allowed to study trans issues unless the majority of the class is trans. I don't understand how we can say ignorance is a problem and then turn around and say the issue shouldn't be taught.
    February 23rd, 2012 at 01:38am
  • AlexaTheRockstar:
    Hi everyone,

    I'm currently studying gender performance and gender identity within Silence of the Lambs, Hitchcock's psycho and the Texas Chainsaw Massacre which deals with transgender issues. The focus of the essay is about the protagonist's lack their own identity. When they kill, they all wear a costume during their 'performance' - this is try and gain a new identity.

    My question is that we begin to understand binary opposites (e.g. boy/girl, blue/pink) and the stereotypes of gender when we are children; around the same time we begin to form our own identity. Do you believe that if a child is unsure which gender role they feel comfortable with and wish to ‘perform’ to then the child will struggle to find their own personal identity? Or do you believe that gender and identity do no interlink and the lack of one won't hinder the other?

    (I hope this makes clear sense! It's for my film A-Level coursework so it isn't a topic in which I am very strong/knowledgeable with. Thanks for taking your time to read this!) Shifty
    I'm not sure how gender or trans-issues play into it. I can see clearly how costume can be important and identity in general but it feels that it is somewhat stretching it. Identity is a...huge topic to look into in any format. Identity encompasses large swathes of the psychological discipline.

    From what I know from Freudian psychoanalysis, Norman Bates (Psycho) is a "psychotically deranged" person still unconsciously possessed by his Oedipus complex. His cross-dressing is not so much a transgender thing (although it does involve "feminine" clothing) but is a manifest of the deep love and hatred he has for his own mother. The feelings of guilt and lust mangle themselves to such an extent that his personality (i.e. the ego constructs) are damaged beyond repair. His personality becomes so disintegrated that he becomes his mother but relays the horrific imagery his unconscious has placed onto his mother as an ego-defence mechanism (essentially, to avoid the conscious mind thinking about having sex with his mother, he distances himself from it to such an extent that he could theoretically be placing slanderous and malodorous concepts onto his perception of her identity. If she is a horrible mother, a bad mother and a murderer than that is what he resumes when he becomes her). The transgender issue feels incidental. If he was obsessed with his father then he would not crossdress as part of his identity reconstruction but perhaps take on caricatured elements of his father.

    Of course, this is just my understanding of it. The film does not...really helpfully portray transgenderism...I wouldn't even call it transgender issues (like I wouldn't call the panto dame transgender issue based). Psycho is very Freudian (which has huge flaws in it, naturally) and it is far more to do with the Oedipus complex than transgender identity fulfilment.
    February 23rd, 2012 at 01:56am
  • We've studied horror films before as part of our exam which is why it's all horror films for the question but we have to try and get our own personal research to back up our essay.

    Also my teacher has made sure we state that the characters don't represent all transsexuals and that the films do state that the character's aren't transsexual despite other characters in the film believing they are.

    I do apologise for it not being the greatest of questions, but thanks for answering - I appreciate it!
    February 23rd, 2012 at 01:58am
  • ^
    So how can you use non-trans characters to draw conclusions about trans individuals?
    February 23rd, 2012 at 02:01am
  • AlexaTheRockstar:
    We've studied horror films before as part of our exam which is why it's all horror films for the question but we have to try and get our own personal research to back up our essay.

    Also my teacher has made sure we state that the characters don't represent all transsexuals and that the films do state that the character's aren't transsexual despite other characters in the film believing they are.
    But the transgender issue is so tiny compared to the other issues within them. I personally feel you would not be writing a huge amount if confined to those constraints.
    February 23rd, 2012 at 02:01am
  • Judith Butler suggested that identity and gender performance are connected - so it was to study whether or not the lack of identity caused people to search for 'meaning' in their life through transsexualism etc. I'm afraid we haven't done much on it yet so I'm a little shakey with the knowledge.
    February 23rd, 2012 at 02:04am
  • AlexaTheRockstar:
    Judith Butler suggested that identity and gender performance are connected - so it was to study whether or not the lack of identity caused people to search for 'meaning' in their life through transsexualism etc. I'm afraid we haven't done much on it yet so I'm a little shakey with the knowledge.
    From the very little I've read, Butler is not the only theorist nor is her theoretical stance unchallenged. Ultimately, you're going to have to trawl through literary, sociological, queer theory and psychological papers to get a fully rounded aspect.

    Ultimately, whilst her theories may have some stance in a literary sense, it is flawed in the sense that it doesn't have very much basis in psychology. I can't help but analyse it as a psychologist and it does feel a bit airy-fairy for me...especially when she gives a blatant disregard for the intentions and motivations of the "performer". There is a quote from her that makes me feel...yeah...I can't explain:

    "there is a ‘one’ who is prior to gender, a one who goes to the wardrobe of gender decides with deliberation which gender it will be today"

    It doesn't work in the real world. It doesn't really work when there are a quadrillion reasons why a bloke will put on a skirt. And where there is a definite degree of overlap with "female" clothing with male that is in feminine favour. A woman can dress as a "man" and there is not as nearly a big a backlash nowadays as there was a few decades ago.

    So it's a bit wibbly. If you want to get good marks, look out the specific criticisms and apply them to the films you've watched. Make a list of causality with each of the transgender characters. Who are they representing and why? Use critical thinking skills and you'll get a A*.
    February 23rd, 2012 at 02:23am
  • Quote
    However, I don't agree that a class shouldn't be allowed to study trans issues unless the majority of the class is trans. I don't understand how we can say ignorance is a problem and then turn around and say the issue shouldn't be taught.
    I believe everyone can have an opinion on any topic, but straight people’s opinions don’t matter in LGB+ issues, white people’s opinions don’t matter in POC issues, neurotypical people’s opinions don’t matter in issues regarding the neurodiverse community, etc. And I’m saying this as a broad, superficial generalization, but for the most part that’s how I believe it should be. So if you have a bunch of cis kids being taught by a cis professor analyzing media produced by cis people, well, yeah, I’m not going to like it. Can you blame me when portrayals of trans people are so horribly inaccurate and the world of academia has so willingly disregarded our existence/struggles?

    Of course people need to be educated, but it’s the voices of trans people that need to be heard. Because we are speaking, everyone else just chooses to listen to cis people instead. (Though this isn’t to be confused with trans people having the obligation of teaching cis folks.)

    I mean, wouldn't you cringe if all the books you needed to read for a women's studies class were written by men?
    Quote
    Judith Butler suggested that identity and gender performance are connected - so it was to study whether or not the lack of identity caused people to search for 'meaning' in their life through transsexualism etc. I'm afraid we haven't done much on it yet so I'm a little shakey with the knowledge.
    I haven’t read any of Butler’s work, but I’ve tried reading as much as I can about her online and it’s made me pretty uncomfortable in ways I can’t word precisely because I haven’t read her exact words. The consensus amongst the trans people I know who comment on her is not favorable, though, and even she has gone back on some of the things she said in her earlier work. You have no reason to trust the trans people I trust, but the point still stands that she’s a privileged, cis queer. I’m not saying everything she’s said is wrong, just that there are probably some flaws in it.

    Aaaaaand I always gets sucked into these discussions and it never does me any good, so if I don’t answer any of the responses I get to this, just assume I haven’t been back on Mibba. Shifty
    February 23rd, 2012 at 05:53am
  • AlexaTheRockstar:
    Judith Butler suggested that identity and gender performance are connected - so it was to study whether or not the lack of identity caused people to search for 'meaning' in their life through transsexualism etc. I'm afraid we haven't done much on it yet so I'm a little shakey with the knowledge.
    Judith Butler is, by far, the most grossly misunderstood contemporary thinker. Mostly because she uses everyday words in a special meaning like 'performance' (which is not a theatrical performance at all, it's Derrida's kind of performance and he picked up the term from J.L. Austin - it means to consciously do or accomplish something not to act out something like in a play, e.g. the priest performed the wedding ceremony.) and because after she talks for several chapters about how gender boundaries are wrong in Gender Trouble, she turns around, appropriates the experience of trans people and says we should all wear "drag" because it would be a clever way to "defy" authority. Facepalm

    That being said, a lot of her ideas about heteronormativity are quite good and, in my view, pretty accurate (she talks specifically, e.g., about how we're meant to believe that desire originates in gender differences and can only travel between male and female or how the idea of a 'biological' sex is absurd because 'sex' is as much tied in with cultural norms as gender is). And beside her frankly stupid comments about "drag", (from what I've read) what most trans people take issue with in her work is the fact that she argues against the idea that a person has any kind of metaphysical, essential gender which they then act out through their body (e.g. by the way they dress). She argues that mind/body separation is rationalism (as in, Descartes rationalism) residue, but now we know (e.g. because of modern advances in psychology) that the body is not a separate entity which is the "slave" of the mind or soul.

    BUT the main problem with this assignment is how much reading you're going to have to do. To give it any kind of depth you'll have to read not just Butler's books (at least Gender Trouble, which I've read and it's not an easy read at all, but she has four other books on identity, gender and performance), but also Derrida, Foucault, J.L. Austin and, ideally, some earlier feminists as well just to put it all in context e.g. Beauvoir, Kristeva, Wittig, etc - not to mention articles and books commenting on everything. It's a lot of material and most of it is extremely hard to understand even for somebody with more training in philosophy and semiotics than an A Levels student. If you want to survive this assignment in one piece, just pick another theme.
    February 23rd, 2012 at 09:30am
  • pierrot the clown.:
    I believe everyone can have an opinion on any topic, but straight people’s opinions don’t matter in LGB+ issues, white people’s opinions don’t matter in POC issues, neurotypical people’s opinions don’t matter in issues regarding the neurodiverse community, etc. And I’m saying this as a broad, superficial generalization, but for the most part that’s how I believe it should be. So if you have a bunch of cis kids being taught by a cis professor analyzing media produced by cis people, well, yeah, I’m not going to like it. Can you blame me when portrayals of trans people are so horribly inaccurate and the world of academia has so willingly disregarded our existence/struggles?
    I don't agree that people's opinions don't matter. Regardless of whether or not they should be taken into consideration when matters of law are concerned is different, but I firmly believe straight people have opinions that do matter in regards to GLBT issues (and all that other stuff you mentioned).

    Clearly their opinions matter because they affect people daily. And I don't think it's really nice for me to go up to my mom and say 'well, your opinion that gay people should marry and that your transgendered daughter, bisexual daughter, and pansexual daughter should be treated as equal members of society is invalid because you, yourself, are straight'.

    Being straight/cis doesn't mean you can't have experiences with non-straight/trans people or the community. And to tell people their opinions don't matter because they don't belong is still discrimination. You're just discriminating against straight people.

    Also, how do you know someone is straight/gay/bi/trans/etc? Just by looking at them? My sister just came out as trans, but she was trans before she came out. Would she have only been allowed to have an opinion that matters now and before her opinion wouldn't have mattered because she wasn't 'out' yet? You're walking a dangerous line. Next, bisexual people won't have opinions that matter if they're in opposite-gender relationships because they're living a 'straight' lifestyle, atm.
    February 23rd, 2012 at 05:17pm
  • pierrot the clown.:
    neurotypical people’s opinions don’t matter in issues regarding the neurodiverse community
    Neurodiverse. What the hell is that?
    February 23rd, 2012 at 06:23pm
  • dru is powerful.:
    I don't agree that people's opinions don't matter. Regardless of whether or not they should be taken into consideration when matters of law are concerned is different, but I firmly believe straight people have opinions that do matter in regards to GLBT issues (and all that other stuff you mentioned).

    Clearly their opinions matter because they affect people daily. And I don't think it's really nice for me to go up to my mom and say 'well, your opinion that gay people should marry and that your transgendered daughter, bisexual daughter, and pansexual daughter should be treated as equal members of society is invalid because you, yourself, are straight'.

    Being straight/cis doesn't mean you can't have experiences with non-straight/trans people or the community. And to tell people their opinions don't matter because they don't belong is still discrimination. You're just discriminating against straight people.

    Also, how do you know someone is straight/gay/bi/trans/etc? Just by looking at them? My sister just came out as trans, but she was trans before she came out. Would she have only been allowed to have an opinion that matters now and before her opinion wouldn't have mattered because she wasn't 'out' yet? You're walking a dangerous line. Next, bisexual people won't have opinions that matter if they're in opposite-gender relationships because they're living a 'straight' lifestyle, atm.
    The thing is that experiences with trans people (or people of colour, non-neurotypicals, etc) are not, in any way, experiences of being trans (or a person of colour, non-neurotypical, etc). I cannot begin to explain how many times "well meaning" cis (white, neurotypical, etc) people have portrayed trans (etc etc) experiences in a completely stereotypical, unrealistic and condescending way. If you think trans people should be allowed to speak up, come out (? since coming out is celebrated as a political statement in queer groups), present their experiences to the world, then please, practice what you preach - step aside and let a trans (etc etc) person talk about their experiences.

    It's a question of authority, by claiming to talk accurately about trans experience even though you're not trans, you claim you have authority on trans experiences - which is dangerously similar to saying that you have authority of trans experiences, you hold power over trans people because the world "authority" means both having a lot of knowledge about a subject and having political power over subjects. To quote Marx and Engles, the ideas of the ruling class are always the ruling ideas, there are always power dynamics involved whenever it comes to who is allowed to speak and about what.
    The Master.:
    Neurodiverse. What the hell is that?
    Neurodiversity is a term coined first by the Aspie community to describe the idea that human beings are neurologically diverse in a more accurate way than healthy/ill, sane/insane dichotomies do because they presuppose that being non-neurotypical is a bad thing or a disease. It kind of works together with the, increasingly more accepted, idea that non-neurotypical experiences/consciousnesses/manifestations (whatever you called them) are on a spectrum rather than in clear cut boxes of diagnosis(es).
    February 23rd, 2012 at 06:46pm
  • ^
    You're putting words in my mouth. I did not say I had the authority of trans experience nor do I get to hold power over trans people. All I said was it's discriminatory to tell people their opinion doesn't "matter" if they don't fit a certain group. I believe all men have the right to an opinion on birth control and abortion, but they don't have the right to use their opinion to force a specific action on another person. And I think straight people should have that right in regard to gay rights and cis people should have it in regards to trans issues.
    February 23rd, 2012 at 07:00pm
  • dru is powerful.:
    ^
    You're putting words in my mouth. I did not say I had the authority of trans experience nor do I get to hold power over trans people. All I said was it's discriminatory to tell people their opinion doesn't "matter" if they don't fit a certain group. I believe all men have the right to an opinion on birth control and abortion, but they don't have the right to use their opinion to force a specific action on another person. And I think straight people should have that right in regard to gay rights and cis people should have it in regards to trans issues.
    If you say that the experiences of cis people do "matter" when talking about trans experiences, it means that you think that cis people are authorities on trans experiences and thus the suggestion that cis people have authority over trans people is there.

    Discrimination implies some kind of real possibility of real life control and oppression and the problem on hand is that trans people do not have any kind of control over how their experiences are portrayed in the media and in public discourse. Claiming that pierrot the clown. is discriminating against you by telling you that your opinion on trans people doesn't "matter" is just incomprehensible when it's painfully obvious that trans people don't have any kind of power to make their discourse on trans experiences "matter" more than that of cis people like you and me. In real life situations, our opinions still "matter" more than those of trans people, trans people couldn't possibly suppress our ideas and opinions when they can't even get theirs out there.
    February 23rd, 2012 at 07:14pm
  • kafka.:
    Neurodiversity is a term coined first by the Aspie community to describe the idea that human beings are neurologically diverse in a more accurate way than healthy/ill, sane/insane dichotomies do because they presuppose that being non-neurotypical is a bad thing or a disease. It kind of works together with the, increasingly more accepted, idea that non-neurotypical experiences/consciousnesses/manifestations (whatever you called them) are on a spectrum rather than in clear cut boxes of diagnosis(es).
    That really does imply that trying to help someone deal with the bad aspects of a developmental or mental health issue is an offensive act. Or hell, even seeking out help sounds like you're a self-hating neurodiverse person...which will be unhelpful to someone who is already hating themself.
    February 23rd, 2012 at 07:36pm
  • kafka.:
    If you say that the experiences of cis people do "matter" when talking about trans experiences, it means that you think that cis people are authorities on trans experiences and thus the suggestion that cis people have authority over trans people is there.
    No, all I'm saying is that if a cis person starts talking about something trans related that it's rude and wrong to slap a hand over their mouth and say 'nope, doesn't matter, you're cis, so you don't get an opinion'. Or, the equivalent, ignoring them because they 'don't matter'.

    I don't ignore my boyfriend when he discusses abortion just 'cause he has a dick. That's rude and wrong.
    February 23rd, 2012 at 07:40pm
  • ^And seeing as how men (and cis people, really) seemingly run the world politically, it's a naive perspective to take to dismiss their opinions. Their opinions are what shapes policy, regardless of if that's how it should be or not. Dismissing them is the most ineffective approach to take, and I've never heard an LGBT person (until now...) advocate that. All of their avocation is aimed at cis people, largely male politicians. You'll accomplish absolutely nothing without cis people and trans people working together.

    And on top of that, to dismiss the opinions of people on your side, supportive of your rights, because they themselves aren't oppressed is just illogical to me.
    February 23rd, 2012 at 08:59pm