Transexual/Transgender rights

The Master.:

That really does imply that trying to help someone deal with the bad aspects of a developmental or mental health issue is an offensive act. Or hell, even seeking out help sounds like you're a self-hating neurodiverse person...which will be unhelpful to someone who is already hating themself.

If by trying to help you mean any kind of well meaning, unasked for condescension, then, yeah, it is offensive - the same way randomly grabbing a visually impaired person by the hand and crossing the street with them because, although they didn't ask for your help, you just assumed that they couldn't possibly cross the street on their own is offensive. I don't see how making do with the rhetoric of diseaseness and wrongness could make anyone less likely to seek help, so few people get help now because people are still afraid of being diagnosed with a mental or developmental disorder because that diagnosis brings with it huge cultural stigma. People who want to help need to focus on helping, not on telling the people they're supposed to help how horrible, unnatural and diseased they are - how could that ever help anyone in any significant way?

the same dru.:

No, all I'm saying is that if a cis person starts talking about something trans related that it's rude and wrong to slap a hand over their mouth and say 'nope, doesn't matter, you're cis, so you don't get an opinion'. Or, the equivalent, ignoring them because they 'don't matter'.

I don't ignore my boyfriend when he discusses abortion just 'cause he has a dick. That's rude and wrong.

I'm glad you said that's rude and wrong because that's exactly what our society tells to trans people when they start talking about their experiences - 'nope, doesn't matter, you're trans, so you don't get an opinion'. If you don't believe me, try to think of how many trans characters have been played by actual trans actors not by cis ones - yes, that's right, nearly none, although there are plenty of films specifically about being trans and countless films with just one/a few trans character. And our society is us, all the cis people, we are the reason why transprejudice exists and we are the ones who have been silencing trans people about their experiences for centuries - denying that we have that privilege just makes it stronger.

I also have a no uterus, no opinion on whether people with uteruses should enjoy the basic human right of self-ownership and not be slaves to the male dominated government policy. My heart just breaks for all the men who are denied the privilege of owning women's bodies, it must be so hard on them.

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Edit: I will go in search of a more suitable thread to reply so we don't spam here.
V

kafka.:

If by trying to help you mean any kind of well meaning, unasked for condescension, then, yeah, it is offensive - the same way randomly grabbing a visually impaired person by the hand and crossing the street with them because, although they didn't ask for your help, you just assumed that they couldn't possibly cross the street on their own is offensive. I don't see how making do with the rhetoric of diseaseness and wrongness could make anyone less likely to seek help, so few people get help now because people are still afraid of being diagnosed with a mental or developmental disorder because that diagnosis brings with it huge cultural stigma. People who want to help need to focus on helping, not on telling the people they're supposed to help how horrible, unnatural and diseased they are - how could that ever help anyone in any significant way?

No. I mean helping as in helping them with their issues as a doctor, psychiatrist, psychologist, counsellor or support worker. Is giving children with autism videos and games based on deciphering emotional states, lies and theory of mind wrong? What about vaccinations for Alzheimer's Disease? Is cognitive behavioural therapy just a tool of oppression over someone who is "neurodiverse"? Is stopping someone from completing suicide an offensive act?

And by giving it a fun, illogical name will make all the stigma go away? Whilst the stigma of disease is not ideal, the solution given here doesn't help either. To reduce any sort of feeling towards any state or behaviour requires an attitude change at the very least. I do not think that it will do anything to attitudes in the long run. I do not think that saying to someone with a brain lesion, dementia or anxiety issues that it's alright since they're "neurodiverse" now. I find it even more illogical since not every mental health issue is a permanent thing. There are lots of people who will have one episode of depression or paranoia or delusions but then 'recover' or move on. Does that mean they jump the border? Are they still part of the "neurodiverse" group?

Furthermore, I disagree with the "neurodiverse/neurotypical" dichotomy since neural structure differs with a lot of things. Your brain structure differs with instrument use, gender, sexuality, handedness and a trillion other things. Nobody is "neurotypical" since we only have a rough structure to go on anyway and the amount we know is limited to to dwell on the neurological side of things is somewhat misleading. I suppose it sounds more appealing than psychodiverse since nobody likes the prefix psycho anymore.

I do agree that we are looking at mental health/developmental/neurological issues in the wrong way. But this neurodiverse thing sounds just like when people call people with severe disabilities "special". It makes my skin crawl.

Maybe I just have a different opinion on it since I have issues of my own and study psychology. Or maybe that doesn't count. Or counts more. Or something, I don't know.

kafka.:

I'm glad you said that's rude and wrong because that's exactly what our society tells to trans people when they start talking about their experiences - 'nope, doesn't matter, you're trans, so you don't get an opinion'. If you don't believe me, try to think of how many trans characters have been played by actual trans actors not by cis ones - yes, that's right, nearly none, although there are plenty of films specifically about being trans and countless films with just one/a few trans character. And our society is us, all the cis people, we are the reason why transprejudice exists and we are the ones who have been silencing trans people about their experiences for centuries - denying that we have that privilege just makes it stronger.

I also have a no uterus, no opinion on whether people with uteruses should enjoy the basic human right of self-ownership and not be slaves to the male dominated government policy. My heart just breaks for all the men who are denied the privilege of owning women's bodies, it must be so hard on them.

Just think how many Russians have been played by Americans, or psychotic murders by non-psychotic pacifists, or well educated, university professors played by highschool dropouts and 32 year old teenagers. Or better yet, all the people voicing various animals and insects in Pixar films, women giving voices for characters of young boys, or white men voicing black kids. Good god, it's Auschwitz all over again.

That said, you just made a pretty bad false dichtomy right there.

Dru said that cis people's opinions should matter too (while emphasising that trans folks opinion should have way more of an impact, same with men, women and abortuses), yet that somehow translates as a slap over the mouth of all transsexuals trying to speak their mind?

I don't know if you misread her post or if you're following some weird paralinguistic course you made so as to twist what she said, but I would like an explanation on how what you said makes sense.

Xsoteria:

I don't know if you misread her post or if you're following some weird paralinguistic course you made so as to twist what she said, but I would like an explanation on how what you said makes sense.

I'd like to know, too.

kafka.:

I'm glad you said that's rude and wrong because that's exactly what our society tells to trans people when they start talking about their experiences - 'nope, doesn't matter, you're trans, so you don't get an opinion'. If you don't believe me, try to think of how many trans characters have been played by actual trans actors not by cis ones - yes, that's right, nearly none, although there are plenty of films specifically about being trans and countless films with just one/a few trans character.

a) how do we know how many people are played by trans individuals? Do you have personally signed affadavits from everyone to play a trans character ever insisting that they are, in fact, cis. For one thing, not everyone who is trans tells people about it. For another, there are more cis people in the world than trans people, which would lead that there are more cis people to play the part than there are trans individuals. (Which means, statistically, one of them is more likely to fit the part.) I don't consider who plays a character to be an issue of discrimination, but a choice by the director.

b) We're not going to help anyone to speak up by telling the people who support them to shut up. I support trans rights and issues and love my transgendered sister dearly. I don't know what help I can be to her if I sit on the couch, refuse to sign petitions or refuse to speak out about the ignorance I hear regarding trans people because my opinion "doesn't matter". In fact, my opinion does matter and it can change things.

This is more general discussion than 'rights', but I was wondering. Say there's a group of women who have been raped/abused by men, and they meet regularly and these meetings are a male-free 'safe space'. Do you think trans (M->F) persons should be allowed to attend? Is it at the discretion of the group? Would it be discrimination to refuse a transwoman entry? Would it depend on something like whether they currently have a penis? Is that wrong and reductive? Is there no problem with it, and people who see a problem are miseducated / have the wrong attitude?

pravda.:

This is more general discussion than 'rights', but I was wondering. Say there's a group of women who have been raped/abused by men, and they meet regularly and these meetings are a male-free 'safe space'. Do you think trans (M->F) persons should be allowed to attend? Is it at the discretion of the group? Would it be discrimination to refuse a transwoman entry? Would it depend on something like whether they currently have a penis? Is that wrong and reductive? Is there no problem with it, and people who see a problem are miseducated / have the wrong attitude?

Because cis women are never raped by anyone other than a cis man and because trans women are never raped. Obviously, these trans women would be showing their genitalia and scare the poor cis women. And it's not as if there are many things that can be potential triggers and eliminating them all is impossible. A hypothetical trigger is much more important than trans women's safety.

That is, if we're actually discussing triggers and not just "your presence makes me uncomfortable" feelings.

pierrot the clown.:

Because cis women are never raped by anyone other than a cis man and because trans women are never raped. Obviously, these trans women would be showing their genitalia and scare the poor cis women. And it's not as if there are many things that can be potential triggers and eliminating them all is impossible. A hypothetical trigger is much more important than trans women's safety.

That is, if we're actually discussing triggers and not just "your presence makes me uncomfortable" feelings.

The hypothetical was not about making generalisations, and I was neither expressing an opinion nor suggesting an answer (particularly the one you seem to have inferred, one that enforces/reinforces cis-privilege.) I was positing a situation where a group establishes, for their own reasons, a "male-free" zone, and asking how they might, do, or should react to the presence (or request for entrance) by a transsexual person. And I was hoping for a considered reply rather than a few sentences of sarcasm.

I assume based on your reply you don't believe that it's up to the cis women to define gender in such an excluding/discriminatory way with regard to the support group. -shrug- Not that their response would necessarily be to exclude; if they did, though, I would think it was based on a fundamental misunderstanding (i.e. ignorance) of gender, and a knee-jerk response which I think should be discouraged, obviously. Ideally that kind of ignorance would be eliminated through education/awareness, but right now those attitude still exist and I think the feelings/emotions are valid, even if the rationale is flawed or outright wrong.

If you think it was a stupid question, I apologise for offending you in such a way.
also, multiple [edit] if you happen to be currently replying.

pierrot the clown.:

Because cis women are never raped by anyone other than a cis man and because trans women are never raped. Obviously, these trans women would be showing their genitalia and scare the poor cis women. And it's not as if there are many things that can be potential triggers and eliminating them all is impossible. A hypothetical trigger is much more important than trans women's safety.

That is, if we're actually discussing triggers and not just "your presence makes me uncomfortable" feelings.

Because raped women are the number one source of transphobia in our society - since we all know they have sooooooooooo much power and influence in our society, most of them are too scared to come forward about their abuse.

pierrot the clown.:

Because cis women are never raped by anyone other than a cis man and because trans women are never raped. Obviously, these trans women would be showing their genitalia and scare the poor cis women. And it's not as if there are many things that can be potential triggers and eliminating them all is impossible. A hypothetical trigger is much more important than trans women's safety.

That is, if we're actually discussing triggers and not just "your presence makes me uncomfortable" feelings.

You're talking about rape victims, and I don't know what purpose it serves to sarcastically mock them.

A rape victim can logically know that a trans woman poses no threat to her, but that doesn't mean after experiencing severe trama that she will be able to control paralyzing fears about anyone with a penis. As if rape victims want to have triggers and want to be terrified of men. If you can't stand being around people with male genitalia you've known your whole life as family, how could you be expected to be around complete strangers?

Not everything needs to be a battleground for rights- means of psychological healing and therapy being one of those places.

^I don't think it's very therapeutic to enable their transphobia or any other irrational/uneducated knee-jerk response they may have, for whatever reason. Be it an irrational fear of blacks, transsexuals, penis wielders or muslims. Or should white, cis, christian women be priority in these kinds of groups/councelings?

Even more so when it comes to the case in question, the victim needs to understand that not every person with a penis is an immediate danger, otherwise, the therapy or the group get-togethers are pointless if the victim will get out and not be able to function in a world full of penis people.

All this assuming the supposed phallophobic victim knows the transwoman does, in fact, have a penis or was a man at some point.

^
But instead of building up to where the woman psychologically feels safe, you feel that you know better than her psychologist/counselor and she should be forced into a therapy that he/she has not approved for this survivor?

How about the trained professionals make the trained medical decision?

^Fortunately, I'm not responsible for anyone's therapy. I just can't imagine a medical professional denying treatmant to a person, based on the fact that another of his patients has irrational fear of blacks, or other religions, or penises.

^
I can see how a therapist would agree that an individual needs to be in an environment where they feel safe in order to feel comfortable enough to disclose and begin to heal. I'm sorry, but I don't think forcing a rape survivor to discuss her attack/rape/whatever you'd like to call it with people she is irrationally afraid of [possibly is irrationally afraid they will rape her] is going to help her recovery.

^Then I guess the person with the irrational fear of people shouldn't be a part of group therapy.

^
I think an irrational fear of men is a women's support group is different than an irrational fear of people and going into a co-gendered environment.

Xsoteria:

^Then I guess the person with the irrational fear of people shouldn't be a part of group therapy.

You're assuming it's one person, as opposed to the entire group being terrified of men, which I assume would be pretty common in rape victim group therapy.

Xsoteria:

^Fortunately, I'm not responsible for anyone's therapy. I just can't imagine a medical professional denying treatmant to a person, based on the fact that another of his patients has irrational fear of blacks, or other religions, or penises.

I don't understand, who is being denied treatment? Was anybody saying that trans women shouldn't be allowed to receive counselling?

Not that with statistics consistently showing that 1 in 4 women gets sexually assaulting at least once during their lifetime and the vast, vast majority of the abusers being cis men, there aren't very many very rational reasons for women to be scared of penises.

dru runs this town.:

^
I think an irrational fear of men is a women's support group is different than an irrational fear of people and going into a co-gendered environment.

I guess I could just chatter on and on about how someone's irrational fear of something shouldn't be the basis for excluding other people in need of exactly the same therapy, so I'll just cut this short and ask if you have an actual suggestion as to how the matter should be resolved.

Xsoteria:

I guess I could just chatter on and on about how someone's irrational fear of something shouldn't be the basis for excluding other people in need of exactly the same therapy, so I'll just cut this short and ask if you have an actual suggestion as to how the matter should be resolved.

I think there should be multiple support groups.

Kurtni:

You're assuming it's one person, as opposed to the entire group being terrified of men, which I assume would be pretty common in rape victim group therapy.

I've googled a bit and it seems a lot of people assumed women would be terrified of transexual persons, as they are distinctively called, so much in fact that there has been a legitimate act passed in Britain, which denies these transsexual persons from being a part of group therapies and acting as counselors. link to a second hand source

I guess the problem is solved. For everyone but transsexual persons.