Prostitution.

dru in flight.:

@ Psychotic Secrets
Maybe they're fat and ugly and no one wants to sleep with them. Maybe they have awkward personality skills or aren't very nice. But you're saying that if someone wants intimacy then they can just "go get it" but if they can't, then their options are rape or prostitution. Regardless of opinion of prostitution, I'm sure most people would prefer it to rape in that case.

I find this argument in favour of legalized prostitution extremely unsettling because

a) it suggests men are somehow owed access to women's bodies simply by virtue of the fact that they exist, that they have the right to have sex whenever they want to regardless of the fact that women don't want to have sex with them, that blue balls is just unbearable and men just can't not have sex when they get horny (somehow this never happens to women, there are always willing sexual partners around us?)

b) it subtly recognizes that prostitution and rape are essentially the same experience, it's just that sex workers are 'unrapeable' because johns pay them off.

@ kafka.
a) the argument was in the context of "if you want intimacy, you can go get it without paying for it" and my argument was "suppose a guy who wants to get laid can't get paid to get laid". It doesn't mean I think guys are owed access to women's bodies. It's a specific hypothetical situation within the confines of a specific discussion.

b) I wasn't saying rape and prostitution were the same thing. I was comparing things that are widely considered moral/immoral to their current or past legality.

@ dru in flight

First off that's incredibly rude to write "maybe they're fat and ugly and no one wants to sleep with them". That is implying someone who is fat and ugly isn't desirable, and no one has the right to judge that. Second, there is legal ways, like I stated before, to cure loneliness. They might even go find a prostitute illegally, like everyone does now. There is not just the choice of rape or prostitution. There is masturbation, the porn industry, striping and casual sex- as in not paying. If someone is desperate enough they will choose something.

Because it hurts the family? It's like finding out your boyfriend cheated, but not only that he paid for it with your money. It's disrespectful and if its legalized men and women will do it more. Thus causing more problems for their lovers.

It is the governments place to get involved. Especially when it comes to this issue. Illegal prostitution should be fined for both parties and maybe even jail time. They get involved because the people cannot control themselves. Everyone would be dead or in the state of chaos if it wasn't for the government. So keeping this illegal is a good idea to me.

@ Psychotic Secrets
I was trying to make the point that it's not so easy for everyone to just go find someone to sleep with if they just want to have sex. Masturbation is not sex, watching porn is not sex. Stripping is not sex. Casual sex may not be a possibility. They can't just become a porn star if they want to and it still isn't natural sex, it's acting involving sex.

That's not the prostitute's fault that their client is a cheater. That has to do with the person and their inability to commit and it has nothing to do with the prostitute/mistress.

I don't think the legalization of prostitution means everyone will die, so I don't see why we made that leap.

I do not believe in big government putting itself into people's genitals and bedrooms. If you want the government in your bedroom, that should be your choice, not something forced upon you. A lack of sexual privacy feels a bit like sexual invasion to me.

@ dru in flight

They may not be but they are alternatives to buying a prostitute. Many men I know can easily find their release in those things, and some women to. The people who rape usually plan it out for that particular victim, it's a fantasy, not a way to release themselves.

In a way it's still the prostitutes fault. I'm pretty sure if the marriage partner found out he/she would be mad at both parties. Not just their disrespectful lover. Right now the prostitutes don't care, which bothers me. Which is why, and many other reasons, it shouldn't be legalized.

Not really legalizing prostitution, but in general if the government legalized everything that's banned, we would suffer greatly and die as a community. Prostitution has too many threats to be legalized, unless its very much regulated. Even if that could happen, which is nearly impossible, it wouldn't be as fun. As in when clients have to take their blood tests to make sure their clean, sign releases and prove they won't harm anyone.

But the government isn't getting into you real sexual privacy. They don't regulate who you sleep with or how many times you sleep with someone. They make sure you don't make a business out of yourself. It's demeaning to be seen as nothing but a thing to have sex with, so why sell someone off as? Legalizing it will mean men will continue seeing women as less than them, and an sexual object. We are more than that. If its legalize teenage girls will place themselves in these situations because it would be easy. They might be beaten, or even raped. The female body will once again be seen as nothing but a sexual object for men.

I'm sorry but I wouldn't allow myself or any female family members be apart of that world. Females are finally able to have a stand of their own. We are not just a piece of ass. We are equal humans who shouldn't have to sell our vaginas out to men because they "may be lonely". If you personally want to have sex with multiple partners, more power to you. But it's wrong to sell yourself or any woman of that matter. (I honestly see more women than men in this industry but the same applies for men)

dru in flight.:

@ kafka.
a) the argument was in the context of "if you want intimacy, you can go get it without paying for it" and my argument was "suppose a guy who wants to get laid can't get paid to get laid". It doesn't mean I think guys are owed access to women's bodies. It's a specific hypothetical situation within the confines of a specific discussion.

b) I wasn't saying rape and prostitution were the same thing. I was comparing things that are widely considered moral/immoral to their current or past legality.

Why is it that we think when a guy wants to have sex, he ABSOLUTELY HAS to have it, either by paying somebody for it or by raping somebody? Why do we never think this about women? Did you never want to have sex when there was nobody around willing to have sex with you? did it turn you into a rapist? Blue balls isn't actually a terminal illness - men could just not have sex when they don't have any willing sexual partners, it's just that society thinks men are entitled to sex - and this makes men think they're entitled to sex - that they absolutely cannot not have it. There's little proof that legalizing prostitution lowers level of sexual violence - on the contrary, because sex workers are an incredibly vulnerable group of women, widely considered 'unrapeable' and who are even less likely to report sexual violence to the police than other women, it seems to encourage it by pointing men to a group of women they can easily abuse and get away with it.

You said that a man who wants to have sex but can't ('because he's not very nice') could either rape somebody or pay somebody to have sex with him - clearly at least for him the experience is the same? in what ways is it different for the women involved? if the man in question is highly undesirable / nobody wants to have sex with him, how sincere / real can a sex worker's consent to having sex with him be?

@ kafka.
You're still missing the point. The argument was simply that anyone who wants to fuck can go fuck for free and I was pointing out it may not be a possibility. You're reading so much into an argument that doesn't exist here and was never intended and I'm not going to rebuff because I'm debating one thing and you're debating another.

dru in flight.:

@ kafka.
You're still missing the point. The argument was simply that anyone who wants to fuck can go fuck for free and I was pointing out it may not be a possibility. You're reading so much into an argument that doesn't exist here and was never intended and I'm not going to rebuff because I'm debating one thing and you're debating another.

You said,

Quote

if someone wants intimacy then they can just "go get it" but if they can't, then their options are rape or prostitution. Regardless of opinion of prostitution, I'm sure most people would prefer it to rape in that case.

how is that not saying that the only 'options' a man has if he wants 'intimacy' but they can't find any consenting partners are 'rape or prostitution' and that 'most people would prefer [prostitution] to rape' so we should endorse prostitution (to prevent rape)? why isn't not having sex one of the 'options'?

@ kafka.
"why isn't not having sex one of the 'options'?" Because the original arguments were this: "If someone really wants that much intimacy, they are allowed to be all means and do it as much as they want. It's legal and they will not get into trouble unless they start hurting people" and "If someone wants to have sex that badly then they must find a legal way to do so. There is billions of people in this world, and hundreds of ways to release yourself."

Clearly not having sex wasn't one of the options we were discussing --- that's why.

Making prostitution legal should happen BUT it should more than writing it on a piece of paper and call it a day.

^

I think that prostitution could pick up the economy (along with weed, but this is a different discussion).

If prostitution is allowed, I say that it should be taxed at the consumer's expense, not the prostitute. This is why brothels are a great idea.

Basically, if prostitution exists, let's tax it like crazy.

@ gatsby;
I didn't get your logic here. If legalizing prostitution is only to pick up the economy, why not tax prostitutes, only costumers? If it's only about the money, let's make everybody pay, right?

I think prostitutes should pay taxes too. All other workers pay, why make prostitutes an exception? Besides, what they pay is not for the government, it's basically their own Health and Social Insurance so they'll be regularly checked for STDs and someday they'll be able to retire, among other benefits of working legally.

Personally, I couldn't care less if the legalization of prostitution would be good for economy.
It has to be done everywhere in the world, because it's the way to take care of the prostitutes, to make sure they're not being explored, working in degrading conditions or suffering any form of violence.

@ Filth in the Beauty
Just as a disclaimer, I do agree to what you said about helping the prostitutes. I will always put human safety above monetary means, and my post wasn't clear on that (and many other levels).

Well, of course they'll be taxed like everyone else, just not an extra tax for being a prostitute. If states have considered taxing brothels, and prostitution is legalized, what prevents them from taxing individual prostitutes? Considering that most prostitutes are prostitutes because of a monetary disadvantage, how would taxing them extra be... sensible?

And even if prostitution is legalized (complete legalization, not legalization with the stipulation organized brothels, etc, etc)... Then how are the work conditions any less degrading/unsafe? Most likely, prostitutes go to an unknown (wo)man's house/apartment/car without knowledge of where they'll end up or what the customer will do to them.

Finally... Even if/when prostitution is/was legalized, intolerance still exists, even in the police force. It will be so dangerous to be a prostitute. It's nice to think that legalizing prostitution is a win-win, that the world is going to do a complete 360, but this is not true. This world is power and money hungry. I'm simply appealing to the world.

@ gatsby;

gatsby;:

@ Filth in the Beauty
Well, of course they'll be taxed like everyone else, just not an extra tax for being a prostitute. If states have considered taxing brothels, and prostitution is legalized, what prevents them from taxing individual prostitutes? Considering that most prostitutes are prostitutes because of a monetary disadvantage, how would taxing them extra be... sensible?

I've never heard of an extra tax "for being prostitute" and I live in a place where prostitution is 100% legal.
Any prostitute is registered and she pays taxes (normal taxes, that every other worker pays) even working on her own. And if they're working and being paid they're not in monetary disadvantage anymore. Maybe I'm not getting your point, but I really don't see the problem with taxing individual prostitutes.

gatsby;:

And even if prostitution is legalized (complete legalization, not legalization with the stipulation organized brothels, etc, etc)... Then how are the work conditions any less degrading/unsafe? Most likely, prostitutes go to an unknown (wo)man's house/apartment/car without knowledge of where they'll end up or what the customer will do to them.

There's always a risk right? Unless you attach a cop to each prostitute it's impossible to keep them completely safe. It's more a problem of public security. And if the government fail to do their job and something happens to them, they'll have health insurance and even paid health leave because they're regular workers.

gatsby;:

Finally... Even if/when prostitution is/was legalized, intolerance still exists, even in the police force. It will be so dangerous to be a prostitute. It's nice to think that legalizing prostitution is a win-win, that the world is going to do a complete 360, but this is not true. This world is power and money hungry. I'm simply appealing to the world.

I agree with you. The world won't magically become a better place for prostitutes because of legalization but they'll have support and people to turn to if they're abused. Police won't simply shut down brothels and overlook women being forced into prostitution, who'll be then only moved to be explored somewhere else when the cops turn their backs. And on the long term people will gradually stop thinking their job is something dirty and shameful. Gradually being the key word here.

gatsby;:

Then how are the work conditions any less degrading/unsafe? Most likely, prostitutes go to an unknown (wo)man's house/apartment/car without knowledge of where they'll end up or what the customer will do to them.

Prostitution is legal in Nevada, and it doesn't work like that at all. Prostitution takes place in liscensed, regularly inspected brothels. The workers and customers are both tested for STDs, and the women are able to safely set their own standards and limits knowing they're in a safe, controlled environment. The idea that legalized prostitution is some poor girl blowing a guy in the back of a car in an alley isn't realistic for how it's really practiced in places its legal.

I used to be against legalization for the same reason- I didn't think it would change anything. However, I had to admit I was wrong and the evidence of what's actually happening in licensed brothels is to the contrary.

I'm probably going to write about the legalization of prostitution for my mandatory 9th grade research paper. I think that, if it were to be legal, it would be a lot safer. Less STDs would be transmitted through it, the escorts wouldn't be abused as much as they are, and the less people would get sent to prison for it.

psychotic secrets;:

In a way it's still the prostitutes fault. I'm pretty sure if the marriage partner found out he/she would be mad at both parties. Not just their disrespectful lover. Right now the prostitutes don't care, which bothers me. Which is why, and many other reasons, it shouldn't be legalized.

That's still not the prostitutes fault if their client is a cheating scumbag. They are under no obligation to know whether their client is married or not, and it's impossible to know to begin with because the client might not tell. On the other hand, the client is the one who's making a conscious choice as to whether or not they cheat; no one is forcing them to hire anyone to sleep with, and the prostitute would have never been in that situation if the client wasn't being unfaithful.
Saying the prostitute is at fault for another being cheating is like saying I shot someone, and part of the blame can be put on the gun manufacture and/or the person who showed me how to use a gun; they were present, but none of them told me to misuse the weapon.

I think illegal, I agree adults are adults and can do whatever they want. I only think it should be illegal because if it was legal then at prostitution shop's doors wouldn't be getting busted in, and prostitution dragged away (sounds horrible, let me finish!) There have been adults kidnapped, and then drugged and forced into prostitution and if it was legal, not many people are going to say hey that's a prostitution place, lets go scope it out.
And there have been cases where kidnapped prostitutes are rescued by, cops going in and shutting it down.
I'm aware cops probably don't do it like how I said but, I'm hoping you see what I'm trying to say.

I think it should be illegal for that reason, I like what's said about above ^^ in Nevada but, I still agree with my opinion.

@ Chaos1722
I understand what you're saying and agree, to a certain extent. My issue is that a girl who, say, wants to turn in her pimp wouldn't be able to without having to turn herself in for a crime and possibly spending time in prison herself.

But I do agree human trafficking is a huge issue.

@ dru is beautiful.
Yes I understand that to but, half the time they wont turn in their pimp for fear of their life, luckily some do! But I do understand that perspective so I think in a way it needs to be legal but on a tight leash where house or suspected houses are getting checked on throughly. So even if it's legal, legalized prostitutes can be fine and safe then, forced ones still have a chance at being found.