Voting Age

veronika:

Neither do I, but I don't think that's a justification for why 13 year olds should be able to vote.

I wasn't arguing that we should allow thirteen year olds to vote. I was just arguing that there are people that can vote that don't have any political education.

Aaronnn:

doesn't matter what the age is, people still don't know what they are voting for

Quite honestly, when you get down to it, this is somewhat true.

Most people generally vote for what they think is right based on what the media or the biased sites/channels they watch have told them.

They don't truly know what they're voting for because most of them just know a general, biased summary of it and that's about it. They don't do research and, at most times, are honestly uneducated on the topic they are voting for.

^You don't think most people can discern bias? I mean, when I watch Fox and they play foreboding music in the background of an Obama montage, clearly that comes off as biased to everyone. People choose particular news stations because the bias matches their own (or boycott the news altogether because they think that's wrong)- it's not something their oblivious to. Do you include yourself in that uneducated mass? I doubt it (I wouldn't include you there). I wouldn't include really anyone in this discussion there... and there isn't anything special or unique about us as a group, we're just a slice of society.

With more and more people attaining college degrees (and finishing high school, for that matter), and thus completing general education curriculum, I don't think we have the same type of idiocy-ran democracy that killed Socrates any longer.

I think that it's not the voting age that is wrong but the education of politics and how the government works that needs to be reformed.

I voted in 2010 as did pretty much everyone I knew because it was the first time we could vote. I voted knowing that I wouldn't like the outcome no matter what happened. Everyone I knew felt disillusioned afterward, as though they were expecting some huge change. I don't think any of us were prepared for actual voting, I honestly had no idea what happens and I was almost 19 (a year above the voting age) and was taught nothing of it.

schrodinger's cat.:

I don't think any of us were prepared for actual voting, I honestly had no idea what happens and I was almost 19 (a year above the voting age) and was taught nothing of it.

This is how I feel too. I voted this year for the 2012 presidential election, and I did not want to vote for either of the two main candidates. I could've written someone in, but that doesn't really help anything when a huge percent of people write in Mickey Mouse. And even though I've taken government classes in high school, the only thing we did that pertained to elections was a class vote on who they'd pick for president. Not a lot on who's who and why they're running, which would've been a lot more useful than half of the material in that class.

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I also was overwhelmed with the choices for other areas of government (local). The ballot had a lot more than just the presidential vote/area. You see signs everywhere during election season, but I don't think there's enough on what they're there for and why one should vote for them (at least in my state).

I don't really understand why people are relating a person's level of political education to whether they should be able to vote or not. Obviously it would be great if people knew all the policies of every party before they voted and were completely free of bias etc etc but it seems inherently classist and weird to say that only ~educated people should vote?

(For the record, I think the voting age should be lowered to 16 at least in the UK for various reasons - firstly, that I think that it is about the age at which people become "mature enough to vote". This maturity probably arises from the second main reason which is that 16 is the age at which the effects of politics start to have a proper effect on your life that you can evaluate and understand. Whichever path you take at 16, the influence of politics will be visible, whether in the fact that you can't afford to keep studying because X reason, in the impending reality of student debt and fees/moving out and house prices and rent and so on/it's the age when you can get a full time job and then have to pay tax which could be lower or higher depending on who you vote for. Politics matters, basically - and you should get to voice an opinion on what affects your life, surely.

I like the age being 18. Your officially an adult in Canada when you reach that age. You can vote, drink and other stuff like that.

@ myriadharbour
I mean't it in a way that kids should get taught more about in junior and senior school, like in citizenship or PSHE or whatever they're calling that class these days. I don't think anyone is given enough free information about how the government works, it's still fairly unclear to me.

When I voted I just felt sort of used afterward, like no matter who I vote for until the day I die it won't make any difference. And the people my age who voted for the first time in 2010 that I knew all just voted for who their parents do, just makes me feel like there's no point, but I'd rather have what we have now than the alternative.

With the voting age, I sometimes think it should be 16 rather than 18. I'm of age to vote, but I know people younger than myself that would use and understand their vote more than I currently do/will in the future. I don't understand UK politics at all, so why have I been given the voting choice when I don't understand what I'm doing, even though people younger than myself feel really strongly about the political goings-on in the country? Also, as myriadharbour pointed out, 16 is sometimes the age in which (or at least in the UK anyway) politics start to affect the things like your income (educational maintenance allowance for those still at school, student loans/burasies and tuition fees for those at university) and your education, so I think people should definitely have a say in the matters that affect them on a daily basis.

On the other hand though, if you give under-18s the chance to vote, you will have the select few who don't take it seriously and joke around and you also have the people that are about as clueless as I am. For that reason, I like the voting age being set as it is just now, because you're more mature and perhaps know what you want the country to look like in the future. You've also had that two years of being affected by governmental choices and really know what you want to be changed in the country.

I definitely agree with the suggestion that you should be taught more about the government in school, though. Our school only offered it in Modern Studies class, which was more of an elective than a class that you had to take and it never did appeal to me, so I never learned much (if anything) about politics through my other classes. In my opinion, it should be included within personal and social classes that were staple requirements on my own timetable and would have helped more than the ridiculous alcohol talk we got every single year without fail.

@ dougie poynter;
I know less young people who would vote properly and more who would just vote for whoever their parents tell them to, if they bother to figure anything out at all. I think it would be great if minors could take some sort of political competency test to vote, but I don't think opening it to high schoolers as a blanket thing would be the best idea.

dru vs. yzma 2016:

@ dougie poynter;
I know less young people who would vote properly and more who would just vote for whoever their parents tell them to, if they bother to figure anything out at all. I think it would be great if minors could take some sort of political competency test to vote, but I don't think opening it to high schoolers as a blanket thing would be the best idea.

A "political competency test" sounds an awful lot like a literacy test or any other arbitrary test to keep undesirables from voting a certain way. There is no one correct way to be competent in politics and I think it would be absolutely awful for the government to decide who is competent enough to vote based on test scores.

Most people join the party of their parents- that's not unique to high schoolers.

@ Kurtni
I don't think they should do a test for anyone who is an adult. But I think if young people want to vote a competency test to show they know what politics are would be a good idea.

dru vs. yzma 2016:

@ Kurtni
I don't think they should do a test for anyone who is an adult. But I think if young people want to vote a competency test to show they know what politics are would be a good idea.

Politics are different things to different people though, how can you standardize that on a test? And if its' not necessary for adults, why would it matter for young voters? To say "you're good enough to vote and you're not" to people in the same demographic seems fucked up to me.

(I think 18 is a good voting age though, so I dont think it's necessary to find elite minors to vote. I was interested and knowledgeable about politics as a teen, but that doesn't mean I earned the right to vote.)

@ Kurtni
You ask them if they know who's running in the primary, if they can identify any political parties, if they can identify political issues.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think minors should be able to vote. But if they did, I would want them to have a test rather than 'oh, let's let a bunch of uneducated teenagers ruin the country'.

dru vs. yzma 2016:

@ Kurtni
You ask them if they know who's running in the primary, if they can identify any political parties, if they can identify political issues.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think minors should be able to vote. But if they did, I would want them to have a test rather than 'oh, let's let a bunch of uneducated teenagers ruin the country'.

Identifying political parties/major candidates isn't valuable to everyone... who says they would be voting for a party and not an independent candidate? I honestly think the dichotomy of American politics is the root of our problem... I don't think we should train kids to buy into it by testing them on party politics.

I also don't think those questions would exclude anyone really (except maybe people with mental disabilities or extremely low SES that prevents them from accessing information). If you accidentally catch a glimpse of the news after the Simpsons, you could answer all those questions. None of that makes you a "smart" voter.

I'm more worried about uneducated adults (a larger, influential demographic) ruining the country. But, a test isn't the answer to ignorance for any age group, imo.

@ Kurtni
Independent candidates still tend to run under some sort of name (Green, Liberatarian, New Communist, etc.). That's why I said any political party.

I honestly don't know.

Since I'm against minors voting I'm technically against any test I'm hypothetically putting forward as well. I'm not worried about the uneducated voting; I'm worried about minors voting because they don't pay taxes and don't have as much of a stake in their vote. That's why I would want to regulate minors if they were ever given the chance to vote. Maybe passing a class on American politics that requires a paper or something. I don't know. I'm against it so I don't care about proposing a perfect solution.

@ dru vs. yzma 2016
Minors pay sales tax, and income tax on any jobs they may have. That's the same taxes I pay as an adult who doesn't own taxable property. I don't think taxation or how much you "pay" the government is a good indicator of the value of your vote or your ability to vote

I don't think there is a solution because its a bad idea. Age is consistent across race, religion, SES, gender, sexuality etc. It's the only quality we can use to regulate voting without disenfranchising a group of people. If 18 is the age you are legally held accountable as an adult, I think it stands to reason that's the age you participate in adult activities like voting (there are many ways for minors to participate in politics besides voting).

I think there is a peculiar problem in my country as there is a bit of a consensual no man's land.

At sixteen, it is entirely possible for an individual to join the army, to have a full-time job, to be married, to have a family and to enter into a tenancy. At eighteen, you're given the right to vote, to get drunk and to smoke. Personally speaking, I think that allowing the voting age to be lowered would be beneficial considering all else.

What I do find interesting is that in Scotland, there is an upcoming referendum regarding independence from the rest of the UK. The ruling party in the Scottish Parliament is wishing for this referendum to be extensive - including a lowered voting age to sixteen and to allow prisoners to vote. As someone who is entirely unamused with both sides of the debate (i honestly have no earthly idea but I lean towards independence for the simple reason that the more vocal individuals on the 'No' vote are obnoxious twats and i loathe to even be associated with them.

So, yes, any opinion on that?

@ dru vs. yzma 2016
Mhm, definitely. Like I said, in one way, I think that certain people I know under the age of eighteen completely deserve to vote because they know what they are talking about in terms of politics but then again, I know people that I wouldn't want to vote even at the age of fifty. I'd include myself in that last category because I am that person that will vote for what my parents believe in because I don't know the first thing about politics or the British government.

In regards to Britain though, you start getting affected by politics when you hit sixteen. Government grants and loans for study can start coming out at that age (EMA for when we're still at school and student loans when you hit university / college). There has been a recent change to the student loans by the government which a lot of us really oppose. Unfortunately, during the last election a lot of us were still sixteen / seventeen and couldn't vote against the parties that now make up our coalition government, so the changes to our loans (changes for the worse, too) went ahead and we didn't have a say in it. That's the only reason why I believe that minors should have a say in what happens. Maybe not voting (like Kurtni said, they can get involved in other activities like youth forums and the suchlike), but they should definitely be allowed to voice opinion on the current governments and I don't think there are enough opportunities for minors to allow their voice to be heard.

@ The Master
I don't know where I stand on the independence vote. With lowering the age to sixteen, you're going to get a lot of teenagers saying yes just because they envision this Braveheart-esque country where we're all Scottish and proud and running our country perfectly. I don't think people realise that there'll be tons of work to make the country self-sustaining in the first place. We'll need an army, a navy and the suchlike. I don't like admitting it, but every country needs these things. And then you've got the passport situation. If we go independent, are we still British citizens? If not, we'd have to change every passport in the country or else we're going to have a lot of passports flying around with the wrong nationality. There'll be a lot of work, and I think that people who have been reading up on both sides realise that, whereas your average sixteen year old might just want independence so that they can have the Braveheart scenario. That movie has a lot to answer for. Great movie though.

On the other hand though, you've got the fact that the 'British' government won't keep screwing over Scottish students with the student loan and the uncertainty of whether we're going to continue to get our tuition fees paid by the government or not. That and we can make our own political decisions as opposed to Cameron dictating what we do and don't do. And, as you pointed out, half of the people backing 'no' really do sound a little bit like idiots and I don't particularly want to be associated with them. There's been nothing but 'no' coming out of London as far as I've heard, so they obviously want to keep up but there's a way to say no politely and there's a way to sound like we're all weak little wimps who can't fend for ourselves. They've managed to keep using the latter in everything I've heard.