Feminism

@ dru is beautiful.
Ignorance? No, no, no. My sister, for example, she knows it, she follows blogs, and searches articles on feminism. For the most part she agrees with many of the views, what she doesn't like are the people. Much like some people don't like going to church because of the people.

But regardless of what kind of feminism, isn't it just terrible that that's happened? That's terrible! In both cases that we've mentioned.

I'm not here to bash feminism, we definitely do need it. What we don't need is someone trying to shove it down a woman's throat, or call her ignorant, or threaten her when she says I don't need it.

I guess I keep running into the violent ones? No bueno.

@ Memo Ochoa
And see, when I hear someone say they don't need feminism I assume they must be ignorant to the fact that women have less rights because what woman would know and say "hats fine I don't want equal rights"? I don't know unless you hate women or think they are less than men.

I'm a big believer in educating people, not threatening them. When tht one actress said she didn't like feminism because she loves men, that was an example of ignorance because many feminists love men. (Besides the fact so of us are romantically involved, most of us believe men are far more capable than what society does, like thinking men have no impulse control and must rape girls in skirts.)

@ dru is beautiful.
Assuming isn't always a good thing.

I believe in that as well. But not making someone feel like they're being condescended, threatened, or belittled because they're not seeing eye-to-eye with their sis/cis-ters.

@ CallusedSilk
Feminism, at its core, has always been about women deserving to be treated as equal human beings. Saying "equal to men" can be problematic because it creates this idea that men are the standard to which we should compare ourselves.

I personally think feminism is super strong right now. I think the word has he same meaning, the movement just has different spectrums.

So called feminists can be horrible slut shakers and transphobic. Not characteristics of the majority of feminist groups.

Additionally, if you encounter sexism and misogyny everyday, feminist circles are one of the few places you can discuss that without being judged. I've had "forward thinking" people on Facebook and mibba tell me to hush about getting honked at.

@ Memo Ochoa
I agree. Give me a group of feminists and I'll give you a group of women who don't all have the same opinions. But people shouldn't be surprised when those in an oppressed group take issue with them saying there is no need for their rights movement

@ dru is beautiful.
Right on.

@ dru is beautiful.
I'm just not seeing these 'majority' of the groups that aren't behaving badly and I'm not seeing a strong central idea to rally around when it comes to the details. Yeah, it's easy to say 'equality', but then when we get to explaining what exactly that means or to just dissecting everyday situations, I find myself baffled.

Sexism and misogyny sadly happen way more than they should (which they should never happen), but it has also become an arena where if it simply happens to a woman at all, it's deemed sexist. I once got so much shit thrown at me because I defended a man. I've also noticed this idea where I've been told if I don't support other women no matter what they do that I'm perpetrating male hierarchy.

I personally think honking at people you think are attractive is dumb. Like, when has anyone ever spotted someone they've deemed attractive, honked at them and then actually gotten something positive in return? How is that helpful? I'm sincerely doubting there are Craig's List ads like, "I was wearing jean shorts and a plain t-shirt while you were the idiot driving the truck and blasting music through your windows that honked at me while driving down Elm Street. I really thought we had something special. Contact me, you blessed gift to humankind." I'm unsure if it counts as sexism, but I do think it's just dumb and also dangerous. I just in general don't like it when people use their horn on the road/streets unless it's absolutely necessary.

So I think part of my problem is that I'm seeing a disparity in the definition of sexism. I would go by the dictionary definition, but last time I did that, I was yelled at for perpetrating the white man's patriarchy and called a dumb sexist woman betrayer. So...yeah, I don't know.

@ CallusedSilk
Sexism and especially misogyny have multifaceted definitions because they are multifaceted issues. Me getting honked at treats me as an object there for male gaze. However, it is nothing compared to the fourteen year olds who get strongly sexual comments thrown their way or girls who get their ass grabbed. It is, however, a part of this problem.

I don't know how one can discuss equality without discussing inequality

@ dru is beautiful.
I'm just not sure how fair it is to automatically assume the guy thinks you're an object for male gaze simply because they honked at you. Is it dumb and rude? Yeah, but I'm not sure we can look at just honking their horn as a definite 'I'm an object there for male gaze'. I think there's a genuine difference between stupidity and sexism.

@ CallusedSilk
I don't think they use those words in their thoughts. It's subconscious. "Ooh hot girl leg me tell her I appreciate her hotness without regards to whether she wants my attention because if she is wearing clothes she must want male attention."

It's stupidity but it's also objectification

@ dru is beautiful.
But we're once again assuming that's their subconscious. You can't see someone's subconscious. You can possibly infer what is in their subconscious or through various careful and tricky testing come up with a theory, but you can't really 100% prove it. That's my issue with it. Things like that are stated like we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the guy's subconscious is objectifying women when they do that, and the fact of the matter is that we don't know that.

@ CallusedSilk
I guess it's about the same inference as assuming a guy who yells racist epitaphs at a black guy is racist. I mean maybe he just hates that black guy. So why racist things to yell? If you don't think that woman is an object don't treat her like one and we won't assume you are. You honk another cars, not people. (Unless they're a hot object.)

Do you believe that psychological studies are valid, out of curiosity? Psychology is a pretty invisible science, much like decoding rape culture and patriarchy is.

Most men will say rape is wrong. But if you ask the same people if it's appropriate for a guy To use force if he's paid a lot if money to take a girl out, the answer changes. It means he thinks rape is okay, even if he says otherwise. Do we assume he thinks rape is wrong and right? Or so we assume he is okay with rape because of how he answers he second question?

Basically I think you can judge people by their actions and make inferences. Actions speak louder than words

CallusedSilk:

@ dru is beautiful.
I'm just not sure how fair it is to automatically assume the guy thinks you're an object for male gaze simply because they honked at you.

CallusedSilk:

@ dru is beautiful.
But we're once again assuming that's their subconscious.

I think callusedSilk has a point, you can't go around assuming.

It's like that woman that beat up that teenaged boy, she assumed that he was taking pictures of girls on the beach.

@ dru is beautiful.
You can't compare someone honking a horn to someone throwing out the n-word. There isn't a long history of honking being used to oppress women. There is a long history of the n-word being used to demean and abuse black people. It's not a good comparison. Also, people honk their horns for a variety of reasons. Sometimes at nothing in particular, and sometimes at people because they're angry at them. it's not an automatic assumption that they're honking at an object. Hell, you can honk at pedestrians to get them to get out of the way, so I'm still not seeing the direct honking = object reaction you've got there.

I never said psychological studies weren't valid, but they have to be empirical There has to be data and they have to be held correctly. Just stating that people honk at cars and therefore they honk at objects, so if women are honked at, they're being treated like objects, is fault logic.

Once again, you are drawing parallels between things that are not even related. If a guy says it's okay to use force to get sex then yeah, it is pretty clear that he's saying forcing someone to have sex is okay. And rape is forcing or coercing someone to have sexual relations.

Also, the saying 'actions speak louder than words' only works if you're not diving into their subconscious to look for what you think that action means.

@ CallusedSilk
If the woman is not doing anything to make the driver angry or walking in front of them then it's pretty safe to say she didn't do those things. There is a history of using objectification to oppress women.

here is a post from the site Girls Ask Guys where I haven't yet found a single post of a guy claiming they don't honk a girls to tell then they're hot. So far every post has said that's why. One said its because men naturally want to mate and need to let people know.

This one says it's treating women as objects. "Guys, put yourself in their shoes. That saying goes for almost anything... don't be so so selfish and just think about your own well-being. Girls have feelings and shit. Treat em like an object or honk at them because they're just " a piece of ass" that you'd like to tap, put yourself in her position, not all girls like being honked at, very few girls actually like being honked at."

@ dru is beautiful.
Yeah, there is, but honking isn't definitively part of that history.

No one's disagreeing that it's obnoxious and rude to honk at someone like that. What we're disagreeing about is whether you can definitively say that they're doing it because they're subconsciously objectifying them. You've yet to actually prove, other than people agreeing with your opinion that your opinion is supported with actual data. If you look enough on the internet, you can find people agreeing on anything. It's the internet.

Hell, I once found someone say only white people can blush and that only white people squint in the sunlight.

My point is that a guy can just be dumb and think a woman actually appreciates being honked at and see it as a compliment. That is a very different mindset, still stupid, but very different, to thinking a woman is an object. So far your only proof that this is definitely objectification is a guy posting on a website with zero credentials that can barely punctuate correctly. Part of it is the person succinctly putting 'girls have feeling and shit'.

If we want to scrutinize every little thing everyone does with a magnifying glass, then I can take the statement 'girls have feeling and shit' and go, "That means he thinks feelings are shit." Just because it sounds logical doesn't mean it is logical. If you produce an empirical study that has good generalization and a high statistical significance that shows there is scientific evidence that honking means someone is subconsciously thinking of that person as an object? I will apologize and I will change my mind.

So far all you have are opinions and assumptions.

@ CallusedSilk
Let me ask how many men have told you they honk at women for some other reason?

I can find several studies on cat calling and the effects it has on women. If no studies have been done in honking that isn't my fault

@ dru is beautiful.
Thinking they're attractive doesn't mean their underlying reason for then honking is that the person is an object. That is what we're debating, your assertion that the subconscious reasoning behind honking at a woman is seeing her as an object for pleasure. You can be attracted to someone without objectifying them.

No, it isn't your fault. However, that does mean that you can't proclaim your statements to be fact. You can say you believe it's the underlying reason for something, and that there are people that agree with you, but it's illogical to say that means it's proven fact.

@ CallusedSilk
You can but it if you feel your need to tell a woman she's so hot is more important to you than figuring out whether or not she appreciates it then you have stripped her of her feelings and emotions and are treating her as an object or less than equal human at the very least.

@ CallusedSilk

when a person is objectified it means their feelings and opinions are being completely disregarded.

When a man sees a woman as a person, before honking or whistling he'd first consider that yes, there are women who won't be bothered by his behavior, but that this woman in particular may feel upset and embarrassed; maybe she has an historic of abuse and will feel threatened and scared.

If he's honking or whistling, it means he only thought about his own feelings and wishes. Or he didn't thought about his actions at all, he only did what came to his mind.

Either way, when someone acts having in mind only their own wishes and feelings (even out of stupidity), it means the other person has been objectified.

If you search in public scientific databases you'll find plenty of psychological researches on the theory of objectification. It's not an opinion, it's a scientific theory.