Feminism

jepha:

So just because a women believes they should have equal rights that makes them a feminist?
I don't call myself a feminist because I have no interest in joining the movement, or just feminism in general.

Anyone who believes that women should have equal rights with men hold a feminist ideal. That's what feminism is, believing that women should be equal on all grounds with men. So technically it does make you somewhat of a feminist. It's kind of silly to say "I believe in women's rights and the fact they should be equal... but I'm not a feminist or anything..." Sorry, but that belief is the foundation of feminism.

A lot of people assume that feminism is all about going on marches, or signing petitions, or making speeches and spiels about women's rights etc. Action will only be taken if you choose to take action, but if you wholeheartedly believe women should be equal with men, then that's an undeniable part of feminist ideology.

Hey, everyone, I just found Finally, A Feminism 101 Blog, and I thought I should share. It covers a lot of basic feminist theory and answers a lot of FAQs and is just generally incredibly helpful.

So are we all just sounding off as feminist or nonfeminist? Or are we also discussing sexism and/or feminism itself?

^Well, considering the thread is about feminism, I guess we can talk about anything pertaining to feminism... which would include sexism etc.

^Fantastic! Let's see if we can jump-start this thread, shall we? I'll bring salsa.

MAD:

Radical feminism which preaches doing away with men entirely, i do not agree with.

That's not my understanding of radical feminism. As I understand it, "the personal is political" and the concept of patriarchy are the key contributions of radical feminism to feminism as a whole. Radical feminists want to do away with patriarchy, which is not the same as doing away with men. Finally, A Feminism 101 Blog explains it pretty well.

Basic summary: patriarchy is a very old social system (not a conspiracy) based on privilege, notably male privilege, and the subjugation of women by means of constraining individual choice and self-expression through strict gender expectations.

For example: when a little girl is told that model airplanes (to pull an example out of my butt) are boy's toys, and by implication that she shouldn't be playing with them, that's patriarchy in action. When a woman must explain her choice to keep her maiden name after marriage to a man, or is accused of misandry, not loving her husband, et cetera because of that choice, there it is again. When Sarah Palin was censured by numerous (wo)man-on-the-street interview subjects for pursuing her career rather than staying at home and raising her children full-time, guess which social system was in evidence? I could go on, but I think you get the point.

On balance, patriarchy harms women more than it benefits them, and vice versa for men.

If you're having trouble understanding what I mean by describing patriarchy as a social system rather than a conspiracy, try this: take the phrase "the patriarchy" (a phrase that tends to imply that it's one specific system enforced by one specific entity) and replace "patriarchy" with "capitalism", "feudalism", etc. Nonsensical, huh? That's what I mean.

I'm a feminist to a point I guess.

Most of the time, it's just guys being pigs. My brother has pics of girls in bikini's on his walls... but he does it because they're on a radical dirtbike.... I dunno....

I think most femenists are just whiney and want attention. I understand that there are still certain injustices against women that should be adressed, but for the most part us chicadees have got it pretty damn good.

^ If you're satisfied with your social status as compared to that of a man, obviously that's your prerogative. I think it's important for women to question the social structure that treats them as less worthy than men and frequently ignores their right to make their own choices. That's a pretty common stance among feminists. That doesn't mean I'm whiny, it means I refuse to settle for anything less than equal respect and consideration.

Eternal Sunshine:

I think most femenists are just whiney and want attention. I understand that there are still certain injustices against women that should be adressed, but for the most part us chicadees have got it pretty damn good.

Not...really.

Did you know that even though women around the world--especially in rural areas--do 66% of total labor, yet only receive 10% of the world's total income? Better yet, women own less than 1% of all property.

Did you know that the United States is the only developed nation to not ratify the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women?

Did you know that in Zimbabwe, over 60% of the murder cases that go to court stem from violence against women? Do you know how many of these murderers are convicted? Not a lot.

Did you know that 1 in 14 women will be raped by their spouse or partner at least once in their lifetime? And yet marital rape is only illegal in 32 countries.

Yup. Women are just fine.
[/bittersarcasm]

Seriously, though, I think you need to open your eyes. I'm a feminist. I'm not whiny. I don't want any more attention than is needed to make people realize that women are not equal to men in this world, and if we don't work to make it happen, they never will be. You can't just make one sweeping assumption about the entire feminist movement and expect it to be true.

^ THIS.

ILY.

I completely agree. Females are people too :D if not, there wouldn't be any human race, right ? xD

I'd have to say that I am a feminist. I believe in equal rights for both men and women. Women should be treated equally, so should men. Any person not treated adequately should have the right to stand up for themselves and get the same amount of help as the next. It doesn't matter about gender, race, sexuality.

Eternal Sunshine:

I think most femenists are just whiney and want attention. I understand that there are still certain injustices against women that should be adressed, but for the most part us chicadees have got it pretty damn good.

Yes, but, we really don't.
When it comes down to it, how many women leaders are there?
Angela Merkel is the German chancellor and Cristina Fernandez Kirchner is the president of Argentina. Helen Clark was Prime Minister of New Zealand until fairly recently. There are probably more, but not many. It is shocking. If it were truly representative, then 50% of all world leaders would be women. The same can be said of all the legislatures in the world; all should have 50% female representation. There are currently 17 female Senators in the US. In the UK, the percentage of women in Parliament is very similar. It's not just politics either; CEOs, senior Judges, any important job you can think of - women are grossly under-represented.

I could also take personal offence to the fact that you've just made a huge generalisation in saying that 'most feminists are just whiney and want attention'. No. I am not whiney or attention seeking; I simply desire the true freedom and equality for my gender which has been denied by the patriarchal society since the beginning of humankind. There is not a shred of narcissism in that.

^ The glass ceiling concept.

I like the sort of Marxist approach to feminism - i.e. it is part of the great Maxim: everyone should be equal.

Bloodraine:

Eternal Sunshine:

I think most femenists are just whiney and want attention. I understand that there are still certain injustices against women that should be adressed, but for the most part us chicadees have got it pretty damn good.

Yes, but, we really don't.
When it comes down to it, how many women leaders are there?
Angela Merkel is the German chancellor and Cristina Fernandez Kirchner is the president of Argentina. Helen Clark was Prime Minister of New Zealand until fairly recently. There are probably more, but not many. It is shocking. If it were truly representative, then 50% of all world leaders would be women. The same can be said of all the legislatures in the world; all should have 50% female representation. There are currently 17 female Senators in the US. In the UK, the percentage of women in Parliament is very similar. It's not just politics either; CEOs, senior Judges, any important job you can think of - women are grossly under-represented.

I could also take personal offence to the fact that you've just made a huge generalisation in saying that 'most feminists are just whiney and want attention'. No. I am not whiney or attention seeking; I simply desire the true freedom and equality for my gender which has been denied by the patriarchal society since the beginning of humankind. There is not a shred of narcissism in that.

I've read that the fact that there are so few female political leaders and such is due to the fact that a lot of women choose family/taking care of kids over career more or at least just as much as it's due to discrimination.
Though, if you claim that there's no difference between how a woman and a man think and their moral values and such- I don't see why a female representative would make different decisions than a male one- so the whole discussion seems pointless.

kafka.:

Though, if you claim that there's no difference between how a woman and a man think and their moral values and such- I don't see why a female representative would make different decisions than a male one- so the whole discussion seems pointless.

How is it pointless?
I don't know why you assume that I 'claim' that women and men have the same thought patterns and morals. I have never said so, and it would be a strange claim to make. All humans do not think the same and do not have the same morals; irrespective of gender. I don't have the same morals as you, but is it because of my gender? We're both female, so I doubt it.

It's not so much the different decision making. It's the sheer unfairness and inequality of the fact that when it comes to the most important jobs in society, there are very few women doing them. It needs to be rectified.

The Doctor:

I like the sort of Marxist approach to feminism - i.e. it is part of the great Maxim: everyone should be equal.

Does one have to be Marxist to believe that, though?

Ultimately, aren't feminists and Marxists trying to achieve the same thing (in terms of gender) - total equality of the sexes?

Bloodraine:

kafka.:

Though, if you claim that there's no difference between how a woman and a man think and their moral values and such- I don't see why a female representative would make different decisions than a male one- so the whole discussion seems pointless.

How is it pointless?
I don't know why you assume that I 'claim' that women and men have the same thought patterns and morals. I have never said so, and it would be a strange claim to make.All humans do not think the same and do not have the same morals; irrespective of gender. I don't have the same morals as you, but is it because of my gender? We're both female, so I doubt it.

So gender affects thought patterns or not?

Bloodraine:

It's not so much the different decision making. It's the sheer unfairness and inequality of the fact that when it comes to the most important jobs in society, there are very few women doing them. It needs to be rectified.

So we need to put women in high positions to make our society "fair"? Voting in favor of a woman because she's a woman is still discrimination.

kafka.:

Bloodraine:

kafka.:

Though, if you claim that there's no difference between how a woman and a man think and their moral values and such- I don't see why a female representative would make different decisions than a male one- so the whole discussion seems pointless.

How is it pointless?
I don't know why you assume that I 'claim' that women and men have the same thought patterns and morals. I have never said so, and it would be a strange claim to make.All humans do not think the same and do not have the same morals; irrespective of gender. I don't have the same morals as you, but is it because of my gender? We're both female, so I doubt it.

So gender affects thought patterns or not?

Bloodraine:

It's not so much the different decision making. It's the sheer unfairness and inequality of the fact that when it comes to the most important jobs in society, there are very few women doing them. It needs to be rectified.

So we need to put women in high positions to make our society "fair"? Voting in favor of a woman because she's a woman is still discrimination.

Oh lordy, I didn't mean to start an argument. I just think that the human race has so many bigger problems than getting middle-class women a 2% pay raise. I think most women, in America at least, are respected for thier actions and morals, regardless of the fact that they have a vagina. If femenist are going to work towards something, it should be to gain that same respect for women in 3rd world countries--something that I don't see too many femenists trying to change these days. I think most people are too concerned with thier own issues to realize the one's that might be effecting others in a far more destructive manner. Sorry to cause any arguments/confusion.

Oh, and I feel I should add one more thing: I don't have a problem with the femenist ideals--the fact that all humans should be treated equally, regardless of race, gender, religion, polotics, etc. It's just what the femenist movement has become doesn't seem to represent that ideal anymore. It's more about making things better for yourself than for others, and that's what I have a problem with.

kafka.:

So we need to put women in high positions to make our society "fair"? Voting in favor of a woman because she's a woman is still discrimination.

Fairness and equality are essentially similar, so yes.
I like to think that nobody votes for a person just because they have a vagina or not, though. It had nothing to do with Margaret Thatcher being elected nor Hilary Clinton running for president.

kafka.:

So gender affects thought patterns or not?

I don't have the knoweldge to answer that, so..
Maybe you could research it yourself if you're interested.