Atheists

  • wx12

    wx12 (10125)

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    adambarck:
    @ Alex; periphery.
    "Seeing as you either believe in something or you don't, what does that make agnosticism, by your definition?"

    To answer your question:
    It makes agnosticism into something which is not any kind of a blind belief system at all.
    Pragmatism is adhered to. Agnostics understand (not BELIEVE) that there are quite obvious boundaries to human knowledge. There are things we will never know.
    Atheism isn't a belief system either. Its one singular idea (or really, lack of belief), that's it. Atheists are not part of an organized system.

    I don't think your definition of agnosticism is accurate either. I'm an atheist, and I too realize we don't know everything about the universe. I think religious people know that as well.

    Agnosticism is just ambivalence, not that its a bad thing, but a lack of conviction doesn't make agnostics any smarter than theists/atheists. Just about everyone acknowledges they cannot prove their spiritual beliefs which is agnostic in itself, which makes the term meaningless because it applies to everyone.

    Many Agnostics live their lives as if there is no God and simply identify as agnostic because of a lack of proof, not personal belief. That makes no sense to me. I mean, I can't prove Santa Clause isn't real but I don't say I'm agnostic, I say I don't believe in Santa Clause because of the high improbability and because I live my life as if there is no Santa Clause. God is no different.
    January 8th, 2014 at 09:40pm
  • adambarck

    adambarck (100)

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    @ Kurtni
    Did you just say that you couldn't prove Santa Clause doesn't exist? OK...............So disregarding that, Atheism IS a belief. The belief that there is no god. There isn't only one shade of atheist, no, but there is not only one colour of theist either.

    If you are agnostic, then you are agnostic. You should not call yourself an atheist, because you are not one. You might as well call yourself a theist. From what you have said, you are an agnostic person, not an atheist, so my definition stands. If you know that it is impossible to know, then you are agnostic.

    Agnosticism is not ambivalence. Ambivalence over the question of God, would be when a person didn't care if OR both thought and didn't think God existed. An agnostic only knows we can never know. If you and all those religious/atheistic people finally understand this too, then great!!! I really hope you're right, but unfortunately, I don't think so.
    January 8th, 2014 at 11:13pm
  • wxyz

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    adambarck:
    @ Alex; periphery.
    "Seeing as you either believe in something or you don't, what does that make agnosticism, by your definition?"

    To answer your question:
    It makes agnosticism into something which is not any kind of a blind belief system at all.
    Pragmatism is adhered to. Agnostics understand (not BELIEVE) that there are quite obvious boundaries to human knowledge. There are things we will never know.
    But neither theism nor atheism necessarily claim any knowledge on the premises they allude to. Sometimes they do, but not necessarily.

    What's more, theism (in and of itself) and atheism don't constitute belief systems; they refer to the presence or lack of one particular belief. When you apply religion to theism, or rather when one looks at theism in the context of religion, that's when it becomes a belief system. Atheism, on the other hand, never was one and never will be.
    Quote
    If you are agnostic, then you are agnostic. You should not call yourself an atheist, because you are not one. You might as well call yourself a theist. From what you have said, you are an agnostic person, not an atheist, so my definition stands. If you know that it is impossible to know, then you are agnostic.
    Theism/atheism and gnosticism/agnosticism are the answers to two different questions: belief and knowledge - they're not mutually exclusive. One can be - and usually is - both.

    Do you believe in a god? Yes: theist.
    - Do you know/believe we can know that he/she/it exists? Yes: gnostic theist. No: agnostic theist.

    Do you believe in a god? No: atheist.
    - Do you know/believe we can know that he/she/it doesn't exist? Yes: gnostic atheist. No: agnostic atheist.
    January 9th, 2014 at 04:09pm
  • adambarck

    adambarck (100)

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    @ Alex; periphery.

    Theism/atheism and gnosticism/agnosticism are the answers to two different questions: belief and knowledge - they're not mutually exclusive. One can be - and usually is - both.
    Do you believe in a god? Yes: theist.
    - Do you know/believe we can know that he/she/it exists? Yes: gnostic theist. No: agnostic theist.
    Do you believe in a god? No: atheist.
    - Do you know/believe we can know that he/she/it doesn't exist? Yes: gnostic atheist. No: agnostic atheist.'Gnostic' (or the Greek word it came from) means 'knowledge', that is true.
    But Agnosticism is not the opposite of gnosticism.
    There are what is called 'Theistic Agnostics' and 'Atheistic Agnostics'. But this just implies an agnostic that actually swings more to one way of believe or the other....
    So, thinks there isn't a god, but admits he cant know, OR thinks there isn't a god but admits he doesn't know.

    But I should make it clear that I would use neither of the two. To be agnostic (in my personal opinion), means to know you can never know. And you would also never guess/argue/lean one way or the other/question etc...

    **If somebody is a GNOSTIC, then they are a Christian of a particular sect (of which I do not know much, but I think it's more spiritual/paranormal-based).
    January 10th, 2014 at 06:51am
  • wxyz

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    Quote
    'Gnostic' (or the Greek word it came from) means 'knowledge', that is true.
    But Agnosticism is not the opposite of gnosticism.
    Gnosticism does have more than one meaning, but in this context it is the opposite of agnosticism.
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    There are what is called 'Theistic Agnostics' and 'Atheistic Agnostics'. But this just implies an agnostic that actually swings more to one way of believe or the other....
    So, thinks there isn't a god, but admits he cant know, OR thinks there isn't a god but admits he doesn't know.
    You just described a huge amount of theists and atheists.

    The trouble is, you seem to be implying that resting on the idea that we may never know (which is, of course, not unreasonable) usually involves totally withholding judgement either way, which just isn't true. I can think of plenty of people who identify as agnostic in that they believe it's unknowable, but are nevertheless inclined to consider one or the other position to be more likely or more believable.

    In short, I get believing that we will never know something, but I don't get the idea that that automatically implies a position of 100% neutrality on the subject.
    January 12th, 2014 at 02:12am
  • adambarck

    adambarck (100)

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    I have just said that it does not automatically imply a position of 100% neutrality on the subject. But by my own definition, such people fall into the two categories of theist and atheist.

    IMO, to be an agnostic and believe in 'God/s' at the same time is contradictory. To argue about something unprovable is absolutely pointless. To give credit to something that cannot be known is pointless (and quite frankly, counter-productive). So, a true agnostic doesn't half-believe or half-not believe: he discredits belief in unprovable things.

    Really, the only difference I am seeing in our argument is more strictness in my own definition...? We seem to be agreeing that lots of people feel both ways on the subject (belief/unbelief and not knowing), but our definitions of mere words are different? Am i wrong here?

    @ Alex; periphery.
    January 12th, 2014 at 06:32am
  • folie a dru.

    folie a dru. (1270)

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    @ Kurtni
    I think a lot of Christians who talk about religion are snobby and whiny. I prefer to discuss religion with Atheists.

    It depends on the person, I think.
    January 12th, 2014 at 04:32pm
  • Lyra

    Lyra (100)

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    I'm a little late to this thread, but reading the last few posts were quiet interesting. I have to admit, in all honesty, that I firmly believe raising a child in a religion is brain washing. It's the first label that's given to a child, and it's one that they have no choice in. I believe in raising children to be aware of religion in general, and to be informed so that when they're older they can make their own choice. I still feel the effects of catholic guilt, even though I no longer believe. Honestly, the idea of certain ideas in religion (like original sin, or people being abominations because of who they love, for example) being taught to young children kinda fill me with horror.

    My parents are a good example of the main problem I see with religious indoctrination. My parents are by no means over religious, but they do believe. When I told my mother I wouldn't baptise my child, the look she gave me was one of horror. Even though she knows I'm an atheist, and understands why I am, her opinion seemed to be 'well, if you're wrong, you'll have condemned your child to hell'. I'll admit I all but ranted at her.

    Also, just in my experience found there's a intolerance to atheism.I have to keep my atheism quiet, because the majority of religious people I've told have seemed threatened by it. I feel like I have to explain myself, and explain how I can still be a good human being without the fear of hell to keep me on a good moral path. I'm a good person because I believe I want to be a good person, not because I'm scared I'll go to hell if I don't. Honestly, the bible is the last place people should learn morality from, just in my opinion.
    April 26th, 2014 at 12:51am
  • shirtless

    shirtless (105)

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    @ Lyra
    I'm with you on keeping my atheism quiet -- people seem to look at me in a different light when I say it, like they're suddenly thinking I'm going to straight to hell and being friends with me will drag them down with me. I especially keep it quiet after a really bad experience with someone spreading rumors that since I'm an atheist that automatically means I worship the devil. Facepalm

    The reason I became atheist in the first place was because when I was young the thought of the devil terrified me, and it still does. So I choose not to believe in a religion where the consequences of not following such-and-such lifestyles and rules will result in my fate being the final confrontation with something that's given me nightmares when I was little.

    I still respect religions and absolutely love learning about them, but they're not for me. I don't like working my way through life feeling like I'm constantly judged and I should feel bad for giving into something that makes me feel good. My social anxiety is enough for me~

    On another note, I don't know if it's still right for me to celebrate holidays like Christmas and Easter with my family Think
    They're not really heavily associated with any religion either, just the general sort of people that pray to God when there's trouble and go to church about five times a year, but I think those holidays have become so...mainstream in my community that everyone celebrates it for their own personal reasons, even if its not religious. Like just for tradition. I feel as though myself and some of my family does it just because everyone else does, so why the hell not.
    April 26th, 2014 at 05:34am
  • Lyra

    Lyra (100)

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    @ shirtless
    The idea of hell used to terrify me as a child, and the devil. I think it's such a horrible concept to explain to children. The crucifixion was the worse though, that used to give me nightmares.

    I respect people having beliefs too. I don't have a problem which someone needing to find comfort in the idea of a higher being. It's just not for me, and I wish the respect was reciprocated, which a lot of the time it isn't.

    In regard to holidays, it's kinda impossible not to celebrate them. Also, I'll admit that I love Christmas. The idea of family getting together, and the atmosphere,is awesome, and if we're being honest it has very little to do with religion in this day and age.
    April 26th, 2014 at 12:26pm
  • folie a dru.

    folie a dru. (1270)

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    @ Lyra
    To me, it was the idea that people I loved and cared about were going to Hell even though they were good people. My mom vividly remembers 12 year old me crying because she was going to Hell and I didn't want her to. Fortunately, now I know (believe) that a loving God would never send good people to hell over something as petty as belief.

    I'm the only believer in my family and we celebrate Christmas. It's a time to be with loved ones. Everyone can appreciate that, regardless of faith.
    April 27th, 2014 at 06:58pm
  • Lyra

    Lyra (100)

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    @ dru is beautiful.

    That must have been awful, believing the people you love would go to hell. That's my main problem with raising children in a religion at a young age. It's hard for them to understand certain concepts properly, and it only leads to confusion and fear. Part of the reason I don't believe is because I'd hate the idea of the people I love going to hell for things they've done, even though some of their actions were awful. The final straw though, was when my grandmother died about twelve years ago. She had a stroke that left her paralysed for years (her pacemaker kept her alive). She couldn't talk or recognise anyone. She was a deeply religious, good person. She died one day after getting her leg amputated, and it just killed any faith I had. It was just hard to justify a good reason for a God to do that if one existed.

    Out of genuine curiosity (not to cause a debate or anything, just plain curiosity), what was it that made you believe that faith wasn't a necessity to go to heaven? I always held the belief that faith (of some sort, at least) was a requirement, even if you're a good moral person. (I'm kinda thinking from the point of view of old testament God and the first commandment) I mean, if I'm wrong about God not existing, I would love to believe that God would forgive me because I live a good, moral life and try my best to be a decent human being.

    ,
    April 27th, 2014 at 11:04pm
  • folie a dru.

    folie a dru. (1270)

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    @ Lyra
    I personally believe faith should make you feel at peace, not conflicted. I was very conflicted in my faith. So I took some time to figure out what "felt right" to me. To me, God is love. If God is love and loves everyone and people are good people, He wouldn't punish them for that. It just doesn't make sense. I also don't believe in one true God or one true faith. I think they're all sort of the same thing, entwined into the energy of the Universe. I am a very non-traditional Christian.
    April 28th, 2014 at 03:14am
  • wx12

    wx12 (10125)

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    Lyra:
    I'm a little late to this thread, but reading the last few posts were quiet interesting. I have to admit, in all honesty, that I firmly believe raising a child in a religion is brain washing. It's the first label that's given to a child, and it's one that they have no choice in. I believe in raising children to be aware of religion in general, and to be informed so that when they're older they can make their own choice. I still feel the effects of catholic guilt, even though I no longer believe. Honestly, the idea of certain ideas in religion (like original sin, or people being abominations because of who they love, for example) being taught to young children kinda fill me with horror.

    My parents are a good example of the main problem I see with religious indoctrination. My parents are by no means over religious, but they do believe. When I told my mother I wouldn't baptise my child, the look she gave me was one of horror. Even though she knows I'm an atheist, and understands why I am, her opinion seemed to be 'well, if you're wrong, you'll have condemned your child to hell'. I'll admit I all but ranted at h
    I thought this was a really insightful post. My husband was raised in a Catholic family and I see the same type of over the top guilt for the smallest transgressions too. And while I am really concerned about children having religions forced on them, I think its important to note that it hurts adults too. I can't imagine what it would be like worrying that your grandchild is going to burn in hell because a magic man didn't splash special water on him/her. That's terrifying, it's not beneficial to live with that kind of dread and worry in your life.

    People often chastise atheists as having a really grim outlook on the world because they don't have meaning or believe in an afterlife, but I agree with your point about original sin, etc. If you think you're inherently dirty and bad just because you were born a human, who are you to say I have a bleak outlook on life?
    April 29th, 2014 at 03:04am
  • Matt Nicholls.

    Matt Nicholls. (100)

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    For the longest time, I considered myself Atheist. I grew up in a Lutheran home, and I went to the preschool, pre-k, and kindergarten. I went to church for a period of time and went through my confirmation classes (I only had to do two years), but whenever it was time for me to go through the ceremony to be officially an adult in the church's eyes, my paster commited suicide. Of course, they didn't tell us that he did. They told us that he had a heart attack and died, but when I found out that he truly commited suicide, I said to myself, "How could I believe in a god whenever my pastor lost faith?" He was cool as hell since his ringtone went off in class, and it was Crazy Train by Ozzy Osborne, and he went to Woodstock and smoked weed. Then, after finding that out, I knew I wasn't meant to be in any kind of church. I considered myself atheist, even though I truly just didn't care. It wasn't up until recently that I changed what I called myself Apatheistic when I finally discovered the real word for just not caring whether or not there was a god or not. Even if there was undeniable proof, I probably still wouldn't care. Even though I'm an Apatheist, I still believe that there's some kind of afterlife, but I more of believe that there's reincarnation. And the only reason I believe it is because of this one past life meditation I did, and I'm almost 100% certain that I've met my Twin Soul (if you don't know what a Twin Soul is, it's literally the second half of one soul. Twin Souls are literally identical, yet polar opposites; The epitome of yin and yang. It makes no sense, until you expierence it. Believe me.), and meeting your Twin Soul means that you've been through many lifetimes to finally meet said person.

    Because of my lack of faith, my one cousin (who's 83 years old) condemned me, but well, that's only expected with older folk. She just started to talk about religion (She's a Jehovah's Witness), and I politely asked her to not talk about religion as it makes me extremely uncomfortable. So now there's bad blood between me and her. It's depressing, but hey, I'm not changing my beliefs just because one person condemned me.
    April 29th, 2014 at 06:58pm
  • folie a dru.

    folie a dru. (1270)

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    @ Kurtni
    Not all Catholics have those issues though or view things as seriously. I know plenty of Catholics on birth control who are for gay marriage and don't think they have to listen to everything the Pope says. And they don't feel guilty or think they are going to hell for those things. (My boyfriend and his family, for instance.)
    April 30th, 2014 at 05:04am
  • wx12

    wx12 (10125)

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    dru is beautiful.:
    @ Kurtni
    Not all Catholics have those issues though or view things as seriously. I know plenty of Catholics on birth control who are for gay marriage and don't think they have to listen to everything the Pope says. And they don't feel guilty or think they are going to hell for those things. (My boyfriend and his family, for instance.)
    Then they're not really Catholics, in my opinion. If you don't believe in main tenants of a religion, it makes no sense to identify with that group, but instead some new age Christianity. The fact that its so important to still identify as Catholic even if you disagree with such integral principles of the religion seems like guilt to me.
    April 30th, 2014 at 05:23pm
  • folie a dru.

    folie a dru. (1270)

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    @ Kurtni
    Religions are the traditions in which we relate to God. There is more to Catholicism than what I mentioned, including First Communion and the way Mass is done. You can't just be a Protestant and do the things a Catholic does. If you relate to specific traditions of a religion and identify with it, I think you are it. I think saying someone isn't the religion the identify with is like telling someone they aren't the sexual orientation or gender identity they identify with and it's rather insulting. They know themselves and their spirituality better than you do.

    Plenty of Christians work on Sundays and fuck before marriage and those are in the Ten Commandments.
    May 1st, 2014 at 04:35pm
  • wx12

    wx12 (10125)

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    dru is beautiful.:
    @ Kurtni
    You can't just be a Protestant and do the things a Catholic does
    You mean you can't disregard significant principles of a religion and still claim to be part of it? That seems to contradict everything you just said.

    And there absolutely are protestant churches with traditions also found in the Catholic church like communion and mass (particularly angelican/Episcopalian churches formed for the very reason of denouncing the papacy).

    Your religion is not an inborn trait, I don't think criticizing someone's religious opinions is anything like criticizing their sexuality.

    Not working on Sunday is not an identifying trait of Catholicism or any Christian denomination, things like supporting the papacy are, though I certainly won't disagree with the hypocrisy in Christianity, but that transcends denominations.
    May 2nd, 2014 at 08:46pm
  • Lyra

    Lyra (100)

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    @ dru is beautiful.
    I think that's a lovely way to view religion. If only more people thought that way, the world would be a better place.

    @ Kurtni
    I agree, I think believing any child is born evil, or corrupted, is a grim view on life. My parents got very angry, but when I explained to my mother how I felt about it and offended I was with the notion of original sin, she was a bit more understanding. She still believes I should baptise any children I have though, and she, I quote "will do it myself if I have too" (guess who won't be babysitting if I ever have children). I understand her reasons though, and I suppose it is scary to think your grandchild might go to hell because your daughter refuses to let a priest sprinkle some water on the child's head. I don't know if the guilt is purely a catholic thing though, I'm sure it's the same in other religions too, when there's a breakage from the accepted religious traditions/views/morals.
    May 7th, 2014 at 07:52pm