Heaven and Hell

  • folie a dru.

    folie a dru. (1270)

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    ^
    I understand your belief of Hell and that makes more sense to me. But I think it's silly to pretend that religion doesn't try to scare people when the majority of Christian faiths seem to preach that non-believers will be punished for all eternity. (I don't believe they will either, but I believe the church believes and preaches it.)
    April 25th, 2012 at 05:12pm
  • ThePiesEndure

    ThePiesEndure (115)

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    I understand your belief of Hell and that makes more sense to me. But I think it's silly to pretend that religion doesn't try to scare people when the majority of Christian faiths seem to preach that non-believers will be punished for all eternity. (I don't believe they will either, but I believe the church believes and preaches it.)
    It depends on the emphasis the Church puts upon the loving God as opposed to if you don't accept you'll end in Hell. If that makes sense. Church's aren't setting out to scare people into believing. At least not the one's I've been in. No, they're trying to teach that the love of Christ is all we need. Hell is just the consequence of not accepting that love. But the emphasis is on the love not the fear of Hell.
    April 25th, 2012 at 05:50pm
  • folie a dru.

    folie a dru. (1270)

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    In my experience, it's very much the opposite.
    April 25th, 2012 at 06:25pm
  • kafka.

    kafka. (150)

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    dru runs this town.:
    But you don't think Christianity does that? I do. I remember being twelve and crying for hours because God was going to punish my mom by sending her to hell for not believing in Him.
    But that only scared you because you believe hell exists - nonbelievers don't. How can you scare somebody with threats that they strongly believe are false?
    April 25th, 2012 at 07:59pm
  • charming.

    charming. (135)

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    kafka.:
    But that only scared you because you believe hell exists - nonbelievers don't. How can you scare somebody with threats that they strongly believe are false?
    Pascal's Wager?

    I could be scared of being struck by lightning or eaten by a shark even if these are highly unlikely to happen to me.

    And particularly if you are telling children about Hell, they may not have the cognitive ability to reason out the situation and "strongly believe" that Hell is not real.
    April 26th, 2012 at 02:50am
  • wx12

    wx12 (10125)

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    kafka.:
    But that only scared you because you believe hell exists - nonbelievers don't. How can you scare somebody with threats that they strongly believe are false?
    I don't believe that the Cask of Amontillado is a true story, but it's still scary. You don't have to believe in something to be scared of it- fear isn't always a logical emotion.
    April 26th, 2012 at 03:17am
  • ThePiesEndure

    ThePiesEndure (115)

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    In my experience, it's very much the opposite.
    That's unfortunate. But it isn't always the case and was never my experience.
    April 26th, 2012 at 04:41am
  • kafka.

    kafka. (150)

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    pravda.:
    Pascal's Wager?
    Meeh, I don't think that ever convinced anybody.
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    I could be scared of being struck by lightning or eaten by a shark even if these are highly unlikely to happen to me.
    Both of those are not that unlikely depending on the situation. The odds of being struck by lighting once in your lifetime are 1 in 10,000 - which is still significant and increases if you're, e.g., sitting under a solitary tree in a middle field during a thunderstorm - hundreds of people are struck by lighting every year.
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    And particularly if you are telling children about Hell, they may not have the cognitive ability to reason out the situation and "strongly believe" that Hell is not real.
    Most denominations preach that children are innocent so they will all go to Heaven, they also don't accept children converts and will christen infants, but only baptise/confirm teenagers.
    Kurtni:
    I don't believe that the Cask of Amontillado is a true story, but it's still scary. You don't have to believe in something to be scared of it- fear isn't always a logical emotion.
    But does it scare you enough to make you worry constantly whether you've insulted people because you genuinely believe they might lock you up in a dark dungeon? There's 'ohh that's creepy, but a cool story' fear and 'I'm going to fundamentally change my whole life' fear.
    April 26th, 2012 at 08:57am
  • charming.

    charming. (135)

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    kafka.:
    Most denominations preach that children are innocent so they will all go to Heaven, they also don't accept children converts and will christen infants, but only baptise/confirm teenagers.
    -nod- I didn't know that. If it's accurate/representative, that's fantastic. It was one of my main issues with institutional religion.
    April 26th, 2012 at 09:12am
  • wx12

    wx12 (10125)

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    kafka.:
    But does it scare you enough to make you worry constantly whether you've insulted people because you genuinely believe they might lock you up in a dark dungeon? There's 'ohh that's creepy, but a cool story' fear and 'I'm going to fundamentally change my whole life' fear.
    Probably not, but I think I may have given a bad example, because no one believes that story is true, where as a lagre portion of the world strongly believes in hell and preaches about it. When people in your everyday life believe something to be true and live their lives to suit it, I can see how that would cause a different kind of fear than reading a story.

    Maybe a better comparison would have been ghosts or the supernatural, because some people legitimately fear and believe in ghosts, and even though I don't, there beliefs still affect me. Though I wouldn't change my life for it, I think hell may be different because it's perceived that you can bargain your way out-so why take the chance in the first place? Where as with ghosts, it doesn't matter if you believe or not, in terms of consequences.
    April 26th, 2012 at 04:49pm
  • kafka.

    kafka. (150)

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    Kurtni:
    Probably not, but I think I may have given a bad example, because no one believes that story is true, where as a lagre portion of the world strongly believes in hell and preaches about it. When people in your everyday life believe something to be true and live their lives to suit it, I can see how that would cause a different kind of fear than reading a story.

    Maybe a better comparison would have been ghosts or the supernatural, because some people legitimately fear and believe in ghosts, and even though I don't, there beliefs still affect me. Though I wouldn't change my life for it, I think hell may be different because it's perceived that you can bargain your way out-so why take the chance in the first place? Where as with ghosts, it doesn't matter if you believe or not, in terms of consequences.
    I still think converting / being actively religious takes so much energy and effort that 99% of the time peopled don't do it just to be sure they won't go to a hell they don't believe in. There are always scary preachers around the city centre passing out fliers and shouting about how we're all going to hell, but the only reaction they elicit from me is an eyeroll because I know their claims are false - the fact that a lot of people believe them doesn't make them more true. I think it's definitely possible for religious groups / individuals to manipulate believers into doing a lot of bad things by threatening them with hell - but only because those people already believe in the existence of hell.
    pravda.:
    -nod- I didn't know that. If it's accurate/representative, that's fantastic. It was one of my main issues with institutional religion.
    I think the extent to which children get involved in religious life depends most on their parents - when you become a teenager and start being able to go to church alone then the rest of the community becomes involved, but before that if your parents don't want you to be religious / don't care, you won't be exposed to it even if you live in a very religious community.
    April 26th, 2012 at 05:50pm
  • folie a dru.

    folie a dru. (1270)

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    kafka.:
    But that only scared you because you believe hell exists - nonbelievers don't. How can you scare somebody with threats that they strongly believe are false?
    Not all nonbelievers start out that way. For someone trying to find answers about their faith or questioning it, I can be very scary and even terrifying to believe that you're going to burn in hell for questioning things. For someone who is being taught that being gay is a one way ticket to hell and they believe, that's horrible.
    April 27th, 2012 at 12:37am
  • ciao bella.

    ciao bella. (150)

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    kafka.:
    But does it scare you enough to make you worry constantly whether you've insulted people because you genuinely believe they might lock you up in a dark dungeon? There's 'ohh that's creepy, but a cool story' fear and 'I'm going to fundamentally change my whole life' fear.
    Ok, I have an example of that, but it's a bit silly and unreasonable. I am terrified of zombies. Legitimately and truly frightened. I have constructed a plan for what I would do in the event of zombies in my head, and I make sure that I know how to get out of any room I find myself in, just in case. I usually keep something I can use as a weapon on me, too. Do I believe zombies are real? No. Am I still completely and unreasonably terrified? Yes.
    So, I know zombies aren't real, but that does not stop me from being absolutely terrified of them. You can indeed threaten someone using something they don't believe in.
    December 28th, 2012 at 01:35pm
  • rosamarie

    rosamarie (1045)

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    Okay, so I saw this thread and curiously began reading it. So, I'm just going to state what my opinion is and how I see things in my mind.

    To me, death is something that has scared humans since the beginning of time. It is the big question because no one knows what happens, and so when religion really started to come into play and churches were first being made, there was this huge question: what happens after death? Heaven and Hell was created. It is to help reinforce people to want to do good so that they can look forward to something good happening when their 'natural life' ends. At the same time though, they are also places created so that people can have a sure image of what will happen when they die instead of thinking 'what?'

    Now, other people believe in reincarnation, going to heaven and meeting God or being damned in Hell for all eternity. To me these are all just ways to escape the fear of what actually happens, if there really is anything after death. Now, I'm not going to be a hypocrite here and try to say I have an explanation. I'll be the first to admit that I have no clue! To me though, and the reason I think I can think about this the way I do, is because I examine the possibilities in a curious manner. Do I simply end, do I go somewhere, am I reborn in another life; have I already been reborn once and just don't remember it? I don't just stick myself to one thing and stay there though; I keep trying to think of the possibilities and be a curious observer until it's my time to die. Because if you want the truth of it, only the dead know what happens after you die, and they can't talk to us and tell us.

    So, there's my opinion on the matter, and thank you for reading! Mr. Green
    December 29th, 2012 at 08:33am
  • folie a dru.

    folie a dru. (1270)

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    @ Mizzie
    Through meditation or other ways trying to visit another dimension, way of being, state of consciousness . . . some people believe they have been given glimpses of 'the unknown', or knowledge of something 'beyond us'.
    December 30th, 2012 at 01:54am
  • jewelia.

    jewelia. (2225)

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    This might have been posted before, but here's a fun thing to think about: clearly, we're all going to Hell. (I'm an Atheist, but I would still appropriately capitalize it for the respect of Christians.) Like Dru said in the Atheists thread, I agree that many religions are just individual interpretations of the same general idea, with some tweaks here and there. So, guess what? We're all going to Hell.

    If you don't believe in Christianity, you're going to hell, correct? That is the same with the majority of religions. Unless you somehow figure out a way to believe in every single religion (which, if you ask me, I don't see how that is possible), we usually believe in one religion, and we think that one is true. So...if we all think one is true...voila, we must all be magically be going into Hell.

    This is just one of the many reasons why I find religion to be ridiculous, for lack of a better word. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but the whole idea of Heaven and Hell is so far-reached, and the logic put into it is minimal. Please, correct me if this all is wrong in your perspective, but when push comes to shove with these religious reasoning battles, I do see more logical thinking and realization from where I stand.
    December 30th, 2012 at 02:43am
  • folie a dru.

    folie a dru. (1270)

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    @ whomping willow.
    I don't think it's silly to think that in the vast expanse that is the universe, with all of it's wonders that we can't even begin to comprehend, that we could transcend into some sort of paradise-type world/dimension/consiousness/whatever.

    Maybe not a literal Heaven with pearly gates, but maybe something that could be interpreted as a Heaven.

    I can't even begin to understand the universe and I think that it is the key to most of these questions and answers.
    December 30th, 2012 at 02:49am
  • jewelia.

    jewelia. (2225)

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    @ the drupocalypse.
    I don't think that's...silly, but I just don't believe in it. What I believe is that we are at peace, just like we were before we were born: non-existent.
    I have to admit that I've considered the fact that maybe another dimension could form, but wrapping my thoughts around it is practically impossible right now. I think what I was trying to say before was that many people believe in the literal Heaven, like you said, but that they don't think of a universe as a whole. My opinion was based more on a religious basis than a scientific basis.
    December 30th, 2012 at 02:57am
  • rosamarie

    rosamarie (1045)

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    @ the drupocalypse.
    Yes and that is their belief. I'm not sure how to rationalize that in my mind, except that maybe they're seeing what deep inside they want to see. But who am I to argue with someone else's belief? I was simply stating my opinion, how I felt on the subject, and I won't question how others view the world.
    December 30th, 2012 at 03:27am
  • folie a dru.

    folie a dru. (1270)

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    @ whomping willow.
    I just can't look at religion/faith/spirituality with only the world as the groundwork. Earth isn't everything and if I live my faith as if earth is everything, what am I really doing except living a lie? To me, unless you take the universe and everything about it into consideration, you're really not looking at the full spectrum and you will never know because you refuse to look at anything else. (You, not specific.)
    December 30th, 2012 at 05:29pm