Heaven and Hell

andILY.:

fluff;:

And in the end, we're all humans and we deserve to be treated equally when our lives are over, since we sure aren't treated equally when we are alive.

So if everyone ends up in Heaven anyway, what's the point of life on Earth?.

I don't know - I don't believe in Heaven or Hell. I was just making that point.

I don't understand why Heaven has to be up, and Hell down.
In Greek mythology the Underworld (which wasn't biased!) pretty much stuck to its name in the fact that it was under the world.

If, reputedly Heaven and Hell exist then surely we would have found them by now.

I'm 100% certain that they are both concepts and don't exist in our physical world.
They're figments of imagination.
Just like God.

the end.:

I don't understand why Heaven has to be up, and Hell down.
In Greek mythology the Underworld (which wasn't biased!) pretty much stuck to its name in the fact that it was under the world.

If, reputedly Heaven and Hell exist then surely we would have found them by now.

I'm 100% certain that they are both concepts and don't exist in our physical world.
They're figments of imagination.
Just like God.

About the up-down thing, axis mundi is a common motif in all human religions. Mircea Eliade explained in connection with our vertical position. We can only maintain this position while awake, and it offers us the system of the four horizontal directions projected on the up-down axis. What's more, the up, the sky with its sun and stars symbolizes light and perfection, the prehistoric man owed his existence to the sun and the stars, while the territory under the earth - represented by caves was dark, cold, humid and unpleasant.

I suggest you read some of Mircea Eliade works -either Sacred and Profane or the beginning of the first volume of his History of Religions- if the matter interests you, he does a much better job at explaining it than me.

I think heaven and hell are not places but states of mind. Like, the soul goes there, not the body and soul.
I remember when I was younger people used to tell us that Heaven was up above the sky. So when we road a plane, I spent the whole flight looking for baby Jesus.

Anyway... I was thinking about this earlier today. And sometimes I believe in heaven, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I think that heaven's just some weird bait to make people fear and believe God.

Meh. But when I do, I've always thought that everybody goes to heaven when they die. Everybody. Just not right away, y'know? Like, purgatory, is that what you call it? 'Cause y'know, I read somewhere that God/Jesus or whatever looks at everybody as equal people. At the end of the day, nobody's greater than anybody and nobody's... lamer than anybody.

But yeah. :shifty I believe when you get to heaven, God provides you of everything that you needed in Earth. Or something.

You'll find out when you're dead. I mean... no one can give you a real answer. Those people claim that they went to heaven or hell is sometimes based on their religions. Buddhist claimed that they went to hell and saw those punishments that people had claimed that it was real.

No offense to anyone but really... no one can give you a real answer.

Guitar_Junior_C:

Buddhist claimed that they went to hell and saw those punishments that people had claimed that it was real.

I thought Buddhists didn't believe in Heaven & Hell. :shifty

Wouldn't the places just be based upon your perception? Because one person's Heaven cannot be everyone's Heaven due to the fact we all have different perceptions of what is great and appalling. :think:

sunshines:

Wouldn't the places just be based upon your perception? Because one person's Heaven cannot be everyone's Heaven due to the fact we all have different perceptions of what is great and appalling. :think:

Could reality be perception?:think:

Also; how much of this reality do you think will actually be imitated in heaven?
I mean, who says this reality is anything like the total paradise or utter torment that comes next?
Would we still feel pain?
Would we still feel emotion, at all?

Will we still be ourselves? Will there still be a sense of the self, so to speak?
I mean, from the little we learnt, I understand Hindu belief as being one that states once you've broken out of the cycle of karma you're 'reunited' with Brahman? Are they still themselves, or just part of a unity with their God?

If any of those questions make sense:think:

I believe "Heaven" is the place your spirit goes to when you die that truly brings you the feeling of peace and happiness (I don't really call it "Heaven", hence the quotation marks).

I believe that the fiery pits of molten lava with red-eyed baby eating rapist demons does not exist in the way that people have managed to make it out to be. I believe the Earth is our Hell.

Erinza:

I believe that the fiery pits of molten lava with red-eyed baby eating rapist demons does not exist in the way that people have managed to make it out to be. I believe the Earth is our Hell.

You are forgetting one essential element to Hell - the absence of speranza.
Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate

The thing that makes Hell Hell is the fact that the pain is eternal, you have no hope of ever getting out of it -whereas in Purgatory or on Earth you can. More over, if Earth is Hell and after you die you surely go to Heaven -or however you want to call it, why not kill yourself?

Sheepy:

sunshines:

Wouldn't the places just be based upon your perception? Because one person's Heaven cannot be everyone's Heaven due to the fact we all have different perceptions of what is great and appalling. :think:

Could reality be perception?:think:

Also; how much of this reality do you think will actually be imitated in heaven?
I mean, who says this reality is anything like the total paradise or utter torment that comes next?
Would we still feel pain?
Would we still feel emotion, at all?

Will we still be ourselves? Will there still be a sense of the self, so to speak?
I mean, from the little we learnt, I understand Hindu belief as being one that states once you've broken out of the cycle of karma you're 'reunited' with Brahman? Are they still themselves, or just part of a unity with their God?

If any of those questions make sense:think:

I don't think it could be really perception because the process of perception - sensation depend on our senses, and our five senses are tied down to our body. I don't think we could feel physical pain, only a soul type - I imagine it to be somewhat similar to the way you feel when you have depressive episode - only worse, more intense.

In Orthodox Christian belief, the soul returns to the body on Judgment Day, so there must be some sort of notion of self - to know to which body to return, and fundamentally to need to reincarnate. If we were all God, a Judgment would be unnecessary all together.

However, although we cannot be God, we are godly -Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil.

kafka.:

Erinza:

I believe that the fiery pits of molten lava with red-eyed baby eating rapist demons does not exist in the way that people have managed to make it out to be. I believe the Earth is our Hell.

You are forgetting one essential element to Hell - the absence of speranza.
Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate

The thing that makes Hell Hell is the fact that the pain is eternal, you have no hope of ever getting out of it -whereas in Purgatory or on Earth you can. More over, if Earth is Hell and after you die you surely go to Heaven -or however you want to call it, why not kill yourself?

Not everyone is going to see things as you do, kafka.
Why don't you get used to it?

^ No, not everyone will agree with her, but some people do.

Anyway, to a certain extent, I see your point. I mean, for people who go to Heaven, Earth is the closest thing to Hell that they will experience. And for people going to Hell, Earth is the closest thing to Heaven they will experience...
To be honest, I'm hoping that Earth will be the closest to Hell that I get to.

^^And I'm someone that doesn't agree with her, that was my point.

andILY.:

fluff;:

And in the end, we're all humans and we deserve to be treated equally when our lives are over, since we sure aren't treated equally when we are alive.

So if everyone ends up in Heaven anyway, what's the point of life on Earth?.

Not everybody will go to Heaven.
There will be those who will go to Hell.

Anyway, we are sent to Earth as a test.
In Earth, there are tons of temptations.
Sex, Money, etc.
God wants to see how we handle these temptations.
If, since He has given us a mind of our own, we would still believe in Him.
Those who do will go to Heaven.
And those who don't, Hell.

fluff;:

they've already been punished during their lifetime. I, personally, don't even believe in Hell, but no one should have to go there for eternity.

What about those who got away?
Those who manage to escape the consequences for whatever they did?

I've been told that the punishment you receive in Earth is just a glimpse of the punishment that awaits you in the afterlife.
But, as mentioned, there are still those who don't get any punishment for what they did.
Their punishment is probably going to be a lot worse.

iareman-:

andILY.:

fluff;:

And in the end, we're all humans and we deserve to be treated equally when our lives are over, since we sure aren't treated equally when we are alive.

So if everyone ends up in Heaven anyway, what's the point of life on Earth?.

Not everybody will go to Heaven.
There will be those who will go to Hell.

Anyway, we are sent to Earth as a test.
In Earth, there are tons of temptations.
Sex, Money, etc.
God wants to see how we handle these temptations.
If, since He has given us a mind of our own, we would still believe in Him.
Those who do will go to Heaven.
And those who don't, Hell.

But initially humans lived in the Garden of Eden. They were immortal and happy but with no knowledge of good and evil -the meaning of the phrase is debatable, but I not here to debate it. God tells them not to eat from a Tree in the middle of the garden, otherwise they will die. The Serpent tricks [does he really?] the woman into believing that by eating the forbidden fruit she will become God - knowing good and evil. She eats and offers the fruit to Adam. They now know good and evil and realize that they're naked and try to make clothes out of leafs. When God calls them, they are embarrassed by their nakedness and hide. God realizes what they did and exiles them from Eden because -and here comes the most interesting part- if they stayed and ate from the Tree of Life they could've become immortal and completely godly.

Now, does God send people out of Eden to teach them something? What?

Erinza:

Not everyone is going to see things as you do, kafka.
Why don't you get used to it?

Why don't you read the Discussion Forum Guidelines. The third point is particularly interesting.

Erinza:

Not everyone is going to see things as you do, kafka.
Why don't you get used to it?

Rule four.

kafka.:

But initially humans lived in the Garden of Eden. They were immortal and happy but with no knowledge of good and evil -the meaning of the phrase is debatable, but I not here to debate it. God tells them not to eat from a Tree in the middle of the garden, otherwise they will die. The Serpent tricks [does he really?] the woman into believing that by eating the forbidden fruit she will become God - knowing good and evil. She eats and offers the fruit to Adam. They now know good and evil and realize that they're naked and try to make clothes out of leafs. When God calls them, they are embarrassed by their nakedness and hide. God realizes what they did and exiles them from Eden because -and here comes the most interesting part- if they stayed and ate from the Tree of Life they could've become immortal and completely godly.

Now, does God send people out of Eden to teach them something? What?

Maybe God exiled us to teach us how to become worthy of the title of God. He sent out so that we could learn how to avoid temptation, much like God did and only do good. That through our experiences we could become worthy of the title God and fully understand the complexity and nature of good & evil. But that's just a proposition.

Sheepy:

sunshines:

Wouldn't the places just be based upon your perception? Because one person's Heaven cannot be everyone's Heaven due to the fact we all have different perceptions of what is great and appalling. :think:

Could reality be perception?:think:

Also; how much of this reality do you think will actually be imitated in heaven?
I mean, who says this reality is anything like the total paradise or utter torment that comes next?
Would we still feel pain?
Would we still feel emotion, at all?

Will we still be ourselves? Will there still be a sense of the self, so to speak?
I mean, from the little we learnt, I understand Hindu belief as being one that states once you've broken out of the cycle of karma you're 'reunited' with Brahman? Are they still themselves, or just part of a unity with their God?

If any of those questions make sense:think:

Well, in my opinion every is perception. You can be given something in reality, but your perception/opinion of that thing is what you believe. If that makes any sense at all.

Example: you see a tree. One that has lost all its leaves from the passing fall season. You perceive it to be beautiful, but you don't know if it's really a tree, because that's what us humans named it and you continue to hold that belief. If someone came along and proposed the revelation that it was not called a tree, but a "tataloo" (I made that up) you would be hesitant to belief that. This is due to the fact that you've been calling it a tree all your life, and that's what you perceive it as. However, that person may have complete faith in that it's named a "tataloo", and call it that frequently.

Perception can be altered. If that person told a child that the tree was no longer called a tree but a tataloo, they would be less hesitant to call it that, since have had less time to fully process the belief that it's a "tree" not a "tataloo." All we know in reality is that the "tree" is a living object standing before us, with names that we've assigned it.

In Heaven/Hell it's one's perception/view of what it is. If they perceive Heaven as fantastic, when they arrive there. It may not be what they expected but as humans they'll find things in Heaven that support their hypothesis of what Heaven is supposed to be like.

It's similar to the way a person twists your words around to support their argument. That's what human perception does. We have a habit of finding qualities within individuals/things that support what we perceive/believe them to be.

If Hell has to be pain, then we'll twist something around/alter our thinking to make it seem painful to us. :think:

This makes no utter sense. -head desk- Is someone able to paraphrase that in the least? This is very flawed.

I believe in Heaven and Hell. Heaven is where eternal happiness and peace could be found and Hell is like the exact opposite of Heaven. It's a place full of suffering and pain.

That's what I've been taught since I was a kid.

^ Same.

It's not necessarily a place, but a state of mind.
But honestly? I've always thought that everybody goes to Heaven. Just not right after you die, though. :think: I guess you like... reincarnate, or something like that.

Heaven and Hell are simple enough concepts to understand. I don't believe we go anywhere when we die, except six feet under. I believe that life is both heaven and Hell. Sometimes it can be the worst place imaginable and others, it can be like wlking on clouds. The happy and sad moments can just about sum up the concept of Heaven and Hell. Because good people die young, because they appreciated life enough and supposedly 'lived fully', while bad people die last, so they can rot while they are still alive. Of course don't get me wrong, this is just a theory I've come up with through my own experiences. There are many exceptions to it.
Heaven and Hell do exist, just not the way we imagine. They are not decided after we die from the way we lived, but it is our way of life that represents either state of mind.

Josipa:

sueno?:

Moreover Hell appeared after Adam and Eve were exiled from the garden of Eden. Death and Hell came as a punishment.

Before that we were supposed to live forever? I don't think so (:

Actually, yes we were. We could have lived for millions of years without sin, but still could have died.