Christians

@ dru's not growing up
I still hold the Bible as my standard, even if I don't agree with all of it [see Leviticus...]. I still believe it to be God's inspired Word. As it is, Jesus is the Word. So... [And, yes I know that's what the Bible says. Or more specifically the Book of John]. But, it's what I believe. And, considering my personal experiences, unless it's proven wrong, I will continue to believe it. :).

Just to clarify something, do you believe Jesus is God's only begotten Son and that through Him all things were created, heaven and earth, because as the Nicene Creed states, that is what defines a Christian.

/apologies if that came across blunt btw, I need to get off the computer and go to bed. Oops. Good night/day. Will continue this discussion when I get back online.

dru's not growing up:

@ Kurtni
I'm honestly not sure. I've been saying for awhile I might not be a Christian when I did but I am right now. Spirituality is really complicated and it's not as easy as just saying "I don't believe I identify the way I identify". For some reason I still feel very strongly that I am a Christian. I can't stop. And I don't know why. It's kind of like my sexual orientation, I guess. I can't change it just because I want to or someone else wants me to. It's deeply ingrained into my thought process, brain, the way I view things, and the way I communicate with God.

That's fair enough, I didn't mean for it to sound critical, I just genuinely don't understand because I've never experienced that attachment to Christianity even though I grew up with it. When I quit calling myself a Christian, or even just quit pretending to be a Christian at family get-togethers and holidays, it was one of the most self-liberating experiences I've had.

@ Kurtni
See, I've never felt like I was pretending except when I was pretending to believe what man told me about God. That took until my senior year. But when I did that I'm sure I felt something very similar to the liberating experience you're describing. To just be able to say 'fuck it, I don't care what YOU say about God, I care what I BELIEVE about God' was incredibly liberating and it also made me feel like I was in a much healthier place spiritually because I was no longer believe in a toxic god of hate. (And what I believed then is still steps removed from what I believe now. My faith is always evolving.)

Christian might be a term I use just because it's a lot quicker than saying "I believe in a different version of the Christian God and take different ideals from the faith and reject what Man has created about God". I mean, if you want to tell someone you celebrate Christmas because of Jesus, it's a lot easier to say Christian that to recite your incredibly abstract list of spiritual beliefs. Most people want a condensed answer and the best I can do is "new age progressive Christian".

@ The Pies Endure
The Nicene Creed was voted on by church leaders. It was also where they picked the books of the Bible. I'm not inclined to believe much of that. It was just a power play by the church to decide the best way to control the populous. (If you believe in anything put forth by the Mary Magdale/Jesus theory, it was also where they voted on the Divinity of Jesus.)

I believe Jesus was a human incarnate of God (insofar as whatever that may be) and that "Son" may be a word easier for us to understand. But I do have a personal relationship with Jesus. I'm not entirely sure of his true nature in relation to God, but I pray to him and he, to me, is in direct relation with God.

I've also entertain the notion that Jesus was an "alien", but that "alien" here means a being from a higher state of being, not just something we could get to in our solar system if we had the technology.

Higher states of being/levels of consciousness relate to my spiritual beliefs deeply so Jesus coming from one of them makes perfect sense in my spiritual beliefs. (Also, possibly, Heaven being a higher state of consciousness.)

Ahem, the Westboro Baptist Church.

JeremyTheThirteenth:

Ahem, the Westboro Baptist Church.

They're not Christians. They're a group of lawyers who incite people to defame or assault them and then they sue those people. It's a scam.

@ pravda.
No wonder they had those fancy iPhones.

@ pravda. @ JeremyTheThirteenth
I would be more likely to say "cult". The WBC seems to have all the characteristics of one. I looked up common characteristics of a cult and they include: control, isolation, uses Scripture to suit themselves, "us against them" mentality, focus on am "imagined enemy" (maybe dead six year olds and gays), "leaders have a prideful, unteachable spirit", pride of the group (we're right, you're wrong, and your going to hell for it), total commitment, individuality sacrificed for group, curses and threats, etc.

That article wasn't saying any of these one things make a cult, but that together they could. And I think the WBC has that down. They won't talk to their kids if they leave the church, even if they see them on the street. That, to me, is one of the most tell-tale signs of it being a cult.

Naturally they want people to look at them as a religious group, since freedom of religion/speech is so ludicrously overprotected in the US. But I don't think it's genuine.

Hearing the WBC actually talk and not scream about their beliefs is freaky and weird to me. They can talk in a level tone and try not to be confrontational. (On the show "Brand X".) That scares me more than their picket signs.

Okay, this is crazy but... I could really use some good, Christian advice. There is no one I can really talk to about this in real life. Please someone PM me?

dru vs. slut shaming:

Hearing the WBC actually talk and not scream about their beliefs is freaky and weird to me. They can talk in a level tone and try not to be confrontational. (On the show "Brand X".) That scares me more than their picket signs.

I think you're right. When they're on the streets shouting at people, the 'insanity' it portrays makes you pass them off as crazy morons. When they say the things that they're usually heard shouting, the madness element disappears and suddenly it's quite unnerving that people can hold such views.

@ Lydia Peace
PM'd.

Alex; periphery.:

I think you're right. When they're on the streets shouting at people, the 'insanity' it portrays makes you pass them off as crazy morons. When they say the things that they're usually heard shouting, the madness element disappears and suddenly it's quite unnerving that people can hold such views.

That's very true. I hate thinking that people assume that their hateful attitude is commonplace in churches when it isn't. Not that there aren't churches like this - in fact my friend grew up going to one that was similar (though not as extreme) - but they're just so rare. Most churches preach love because that's what Christ is - love.

Careless Whisper.:

@ Lydia Peace
PM'd.

That's very true. I hate thinking that people assume that their hateful attitude is commonplace in churches when it isn't. Not that there aren't churches like this - in fact my friend grew up going to one that was similar (though not as extreme) - but they're just so rare. Most churches preach love because that's what Christ is - love.

Why are you sure they're so rare? The majority of Christians polled condemn homosexuality/think its a sin/do not support gay marriage. The majority of Christians don't support abortion. Christians are far more likely to hold conservative beliefs about women's rights/education, etc.

I don't think it's possible to say most churches preach love when most Christians have some very unloving views. Churches fund most anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-women, anti-science political causes. It's fine to acknowledge there are exceptions and some inclusive churches, but they're not the majority, in spite of how badly liberal Christians want them to be

Kurtni:

Why are you sure they're so rare? The majority of Christians polled condemn homosexuality/think its a sin/do not support gay marriage. The majority of Christians don't support abortion. Christians are far more likely to hold conservative beliefs about women's rights/education, etc.

I don't think it's possible to say most churches preach love when most Christians have some very unloving views. Churches fund most anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-women, anti-science political causes. It's fine to acknowledge there are exceptions and some inclusive churches, but they're not the majority, in spite of how badly liberal Christians want them to be

And if not most, the biggest. The more liberal/inclusive churches aren't exactly as prominent or well-recognised as the others.

@ Kurtni
The Churches may be that way, but the individuals within them may not be. My church is a large church. The church itself doesn't have an official position on homosexuality, though I do get the impression that they are against gay marriage. However, I know several people within the church who are openly gay and they are allowed to stay, even some on the team. The fact is that misguided as it may be, most churches DO preach love.

It's not out of hate that they 'condemn' homosexuality, it's out of love for the person, and fear for their eternity after death. I'm not saying that hate towards homosexuals within the church isn't real, and I don't pretend to agree with it. But, many of them truly believe that it [homosexuality/anything that isn't a man and a woman in relationship] is a sin, and ANY sin separates us from eternal life with God unless we repent and accept Jesus in our lives we don't get to be with God.

My biggest issue is that people forget that homosexuality as a sin is no worse than any other sin, but it seems to be targeted the most in this current age.

The Pies Endure:

@ Kurtni
The Churches may be that way, but the individuals within them may not be. My church is a large church. The church itself doesn't have an official position on homosexuality, though I do get the impression that they are against gay marriage. However, I know several people within the church who are openly gay and they are allowed to stay, even some on the team. The fact is that misguided as it may be, most churches DO preach love.

It's not out of hate that they 'condemn' homosexuality, it's out of love for the person, and fear for their eternity after death. I'm not saying that hate towards homosexuals within the church isn't real, and I don't pretend to agree with it. But, many of them truly believe that it [homosexuality/anything that isn't a man and a woman in relationship] is a sin, and ANY sin separates us from eternal life with God unless we repent and accept Jesus in our lives we don't get to be with God.

My biggest issue is that people forget that homosexuality as a sin is no worse than any other sin, but it seems to be targeted the most in this current age.

There are plenty of churches with official, anti-gay positions. All of the antecedents people post about their one particular church does not change the fact that most churches aren't like that, and that the hateful churches are dominating political discourse and actively hurting people. And I 100% disagree that church sponsored homophobia is a position of love. That's not love, and anyone who thinks they're discriminating against gays out of love doesn't know what love is or they're blatantly lying to justify their opinions. I think that's a terrible, cop out of an excuse for discrimination.

And I'm talking about individuals being polled, which reflect the beliefs of their churches. It doesn't make sense to say there are a majority of liberal, loving churches that somehow produce people with vile, hateful beliefs.

I think it's wrong to consider homosexuality a sin at all. If homosexuality is a sin like any other... that puts it on par with murder, rape (well, that's not always a sin in Christianity), theft, adultery... a loving homosexual relationship is deemed as bad as a crime. Saying it's like any other sin is still a homophobic thing to say.

@ Kurtni
I'll have to respectfully disagree with all of that. And being homophobic and saying homosexuality is a sin is two different things, in my opinion. I'm far from homophobic [I'm also far from believing 100% that homosexuality is a sin...but that's another kettle of fish altogether.] And, I still say Churches preach love.

As to the sinfulness of homosexuality, I'm talking more about the people who treat homosexuality as if it is worse than other sins. That's what I meant. No sin is worse than the next, except for the unforgivable sins, which homosexuality isn't. Also, I don't see how rape is not a sin in Christianity? Unless you're referring to marital privileges of men? Which I didn't think was an accepted thing. Interestingly, in Judaism which Christianity has its roots, it's the woman who has control of sexual relations...but I digress.

Back to my point about not believing that homosexuality is a sin 100%, it all comes down to interpretation. Some documents I've read suggest that in the instances where the passages condemn homosexuality, it is not referring to loving homosexual relations, and is more related to the concept of adultery and immoral sexual relations, such as prostitution and that sort of thing. Though, some would argue that would be reading too much into it and taking the passage out of context. I'm not a Hebrew or Greek scholar, so I wouldn't know. All I know is that God loves everyone and knows everyone's heart.

After all, it's not for us to judge who is saved or not.

@ The Pies Endure
If churches were that concerned, wouldn't they have the same sort of concern for those who are divorced or those with tattoos or those who work on Sunday? (Granted, everyone at my church told me my dad was going to hell for working on Sunday.)

@ gonna hear dru roar.
Probably, yes...but I think it's because homosexuality has to do with sex that people get more up in arms about it. Because it's such an intimate, thing. And, you don't see people protesting or marching about people having tattoos or working on Sunday. [Though people do protest about Sunday trading in general...Perth, Australia is really bad for it...we only just got Sunday trading here...] [Oh, and SDAs would be against working on Saturdays, not Sundays].

@ The Pies Endure
Divorce has to do with sex. They say if you get remarried, you're cheating on your previous spouse.